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Thread: Why do so many people hate this game????

  1. #76
    Onion Kid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revan View Post
    Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords.
    I also enjoyed this game myself. I replay both KotOR 1 & 2 often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrykolas View Post
    I take great exception to Seymour, Sin and the Maesters being held up as examples of great villains! But I won't argue that for the most part, FF13 lacks strong enemies (but then so do many games these days).
    I never meant to say Seymour, Sin and the Maesters were good villians. My point was they were there and made a significant impact on the story that was given to us. To me in FF13, I didn't know who the hell was a villian until I saw Bathandelus (or whatever the hell his name was) twice, then thrice. He was the only villian I can actually recall that even tried to make an impact on the story. Lack of a strong main villian and several supportive villians spell doom for a story, no matter how well it was written. Can't have a story without some sort of anatgonist.

  2. #77
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    But that's kind of the point - Lightning needs someone to fight against by her own admission, and makes up her own enemy in Chapter 4 (she blames the Sanctum for what happened) just to have a reason to keep moving. She comes to her senses in Parumpolum, leaving her and Hope wondering who they should be fighting, before finally agreeing with everyone else that Dysley is the one to blame and not the Sanctum as a whole.

    A very similar thing happens in FF12. Both Ashe and Vayne both want to fight to achieve victory, but its never practical or allowable because of political constraints and realities. Everyone keeps compromising, enemies frequently turn out to be quite reasonable and willing to make deals etc, when they want nothing less than to brand them as enemies and defeat them.

    These later FF games have shown that real life is never so simple as 'The Goodies versus the Baddies'. Arcadia isn't just an evil empire in FF12, the Sanctum of FF13 is not an inherently evil institution etc.

    You're not wrong that genre stories have traditonally been motivated by strong antagonists, but that kind of storytelling has fallen out of favour these days.

    These days, when considering the classic of classics, Star Wars, you're liable to hear people commenting 'But what about all the ordinary people working on the Death Star? The ones who didn't man the big world destroying laser? Why did they have to be murdered by the 'heroic' rebels?


    And Smarty has it exactly - if Obsidian had more cash on tap, their games wouldn't be as buggy, simple as that. People seriously, seriously need to stop blaming Obsidian for KOTOR 2's rushed ending. It was in no way their fault - Lucasarts demanded the game be brought out before it was finished. That has absolutely nothing to do with Obsidian, yet they always cop the blame for it.

    Their subsequent games have been riddlied with glitches, but again, its simply a matter of their ambition and the scope of games they make, outstripping their resources in terms of staff and equipment. With SE bankrolling them, that wouldn't be an issue anymore.

    And again, I point to games like KOTOR 2 and Fallout: New Vegas to show the quality of their writers. Because there are a hell of a lot of people who *love* those games (me included) and for games with as many bugs and gliches to have so many admirers, that just shows how great the writing, world building, characters and atmosphere is in Obsidian's games.

  3. #78
    Grand Shriner ddrmaxman's Avatar
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    Finally, someone who gets it. lol
    hmm. . . A device that makes bad weather. . . :/

  4. #79
    Onion Kid
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    The one thing that isn't being understood here is the fact these are Final Fantasy. Keyword is fantasy. Sure political undercurrents and moral dilemmas are great to get wrapped up in, but we keep forgetting that the worlds created in these games are just fantasy and shouldn't be taken as seriously as people tend to. To be honest, if the good vs evil (black vs white) type story was really falling out, game companies like Atlus wouldn't be doing well in sales when their stories are all about good versus evil. There's nothing like a good fantasy where you're in charge of toppling a major empire.

    That, in itself, is probably half the problem people have with the story. But, then again, it could be said that Shin-Ra, Rufus, or even the Maesters of FFX weren't inherently evil. Political undertones and such have always played a role in the Final Fantasy series. However there has always been a fine balance or amount of it that appears in the game. There was too much of it in FF13, that it lost it's identity half way through the game. It kept switching masks too many times that it was hard to even maintain one set villian.

    If you have too many moral dilemmas and greyed villians that aren't good nor evil, then in the end, the final boss you face at the end game (in my opinion) is totally pointless. There is no reason for me to fight a villian if I agree with his views, which makes the final boss fight a major contridiction.

    I know that sounds a bit confusing so I hope you guys understand what I meant

  5. #80
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    I just don't see how you can apply that thinking to FFX. One of my major problems with that game has always been the extremely tame (and largely absent) villains. Most of that game is just shuffling along a straight path (which was villfied in FF13, but is apparently great in FFX, despite it being exactly the same), with very little opposition at all to break up the tedium.

    And I also don't accept the argument that Shinra and Sephiroth were not evil. Shinra are about as black as they come, commiting all kinds of atrocities purely to make profit. Sephiroth may have a sob story past, but the fact is he was trying to summon a meteor to wipe out all life on the planet. That's pretty evil in anyone's book, surely?

    You also reduce Atlus' storytelling in an extremely unfair way. It is hardly a case of good versus evil, seeing as how your own party members are frequently pretty evil themselves! Nocturne has no canon path to it, and you're free to side with factions that espouse brutal warfare, eternal tranquility, isolation or even utter annihiliation of all existence!

    The final boss is not evil at all, it is merely a force of creation. You fight it for the right to mold the new reality in the image you desire. Its not about Good versus Evil unless you want it to be (i.e you can make choices that identify your character as a good person and oppose the more obviously evil factions). But that's just one example - you can be Good, evil or Neutral.

    Altus succeed because they have an interesting style, and their games are dark and utterly crazy, but in good ways. They also appeal more obviously to western audiences, because their games tend to be more actiony than standard JRPGs.


    There is still a place for Good versus Evil, but you have to do it near perfectly these days to avoid people dismissing it out of hand as tired, seen it all before, childish etc (Mass Effect 1 is probably the best Good versus Evil story of recent times, but even that is just Babyon 5 'An ancient Evil returns' again). Pretty much every RPG made in the last 10 years west and east has been treated this way by critics and often the public too.

    And yet when companies stray from this, people still aren't satisfied. FF12, FF13, Dragon Age 2 etc were all pillioried by the masses for not having clear cut baddies and epic action packed stories.

    A compromise must be struck. You do need baddies, you do need opposition, but you also can't just have people who are just being evil because they want ultimate power or stuff like that, anymore. It just seems like an incredibly old hat and childishly simplistic way to portray a world and its characters.

    I mean, its the same with movies, right? It may have been acceptable in the 80's for a blockbuster movie to be 'A really big guy in a vest, shoots armies of guys to death, whilst standing in front of an exploding helicopter - The Movie!'

    But all but the most undemanding viewers need something a little more involved these days! Doesn't mean we don't want exploding helicopters and all that, just that its no longer enough for the film to be just about that.

  6. #81
    Onion Kid
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    Or maybe, you're just viewing these games with a bit of an open mind due to age (meaning that when you were a child, everything was black and white versus being older allows you to want to be a bit more greyed and objective to stories and characters).

    I don't ever recall saying that Shin-Ra wasn't evil, nor do I recall ever saying Sephiroth wasn't either. That brings me back to the original point that FF7 had clear-cut villians.

    I ask you this: When you face the final boss, how grandiose do you believe it to be? Even better, when you fight the boss, do you expect to be fighting someone of evil intent? Why fight the boss at all if the boss isn't evil? That's the point I'm getting at. To have a final boss at all, the boss needs to be evil in order to justify the fight. Why would you fight someone who is a good guy? Just makes no sense. To fight a boss, you need a reason, a want, and an attachment to do so. This is what made bosses great. However, the reason, the want, and/or the attachment cannot be forced or else it'll turn out like what FF13 has. It felt like the writer(s) realized they had no real antagonist until halfway through the story because of the constant switching between characters and no clear cut story, so they slapped Barthandules into the role.

    I think what's going on here is we're talking about two different things that, while it may seem like they're the same things, they aren't. You're talking about moral dilemmas and the like. I'm just talking about clear antagonists that make a significant impact on the story (I'm not really talking about good vs evil, I was just using it as an example). I agree there needs to be all the undertones and sub-plots that make stories engaging, but at the same time the game has to stick within the realm that it is claiming to be in.

  7. #82
    Grand Shriner ddrmaxman's Avatar
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    The way I see it, I don't care about the story line as much as I care about the actual gameplay. That's not because I'm a kid, far from it actually. It's because you can have flashy graphics, an excellent storyline, etc. but that doesn't mean anything if the gameplay sucks badly, then you might as well be reading a book.

  8. #83
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    Well, you actually did say 'It could be argued that Shin-Ra, Rufus etc aren't inherently evil' in the post above mine. If you mis-spoke yourself then that's fine, but that's why I said what I did.

    Moving on, I'd argue that all a game really needs is a hook that makes you keep playing. If that's interesting enemies, then so be it. But as ddrMaxman points out, it could simply be the gameplay that hooks you in, or maybe the world itself. There are plenty of great RPGs out there that have extremely poor villains. Can you even remember the villain from Oblivion, wasn't the Archdemon of DAO just a pretty ordinary looking dragon etc?

    And like I said, SMT Nocturne doesn't have an antagonist at the end. Kagutsuchi has no animosity towards you (or anyone), nor you towards it. But it is a grand looking enemy and a momentous showdown, because you're fighting for the future of existence. So a boss doesn't have to be evil to justify the fight. The Arishok is IMO the best antagonist in DA2, and he isn't evil at all. He's simply a character with a clear and believable motivation, whose obligations bring him into conflict with Hawke.

    I'd say that FF13 certainly has an evil final boss, but I wouldn't say he was the primary reason I kept playing that game. I became invested in the characters and the gameplay, and was interested in seeing how the story unfolded. I was pleasantly surprised at the end however, to find that I did really want to kill Barthendelus though. It did matter to me in a way that killing Kuja and Jecht etc didn't.

    Does he have the show stopping pulling power of a Sephiroth? Well no, but let's not forget that FF7 is a game that would be in the top 3 RPGs of a great many gamers around the world, even today. Just because a game isn't as good as one that is considered amongst the very best ever made, is no crime.

    I'm not arguing that games don't need antagonists or opposing forces. As I mentioned, I found FFX to be suffocatingly boring due to a lack of either. But games that are more heavily reliant on story need to focus on more than just Good versus Evil. Because we really seen it all before, and life isn't that simple. So as games start to look more real, they need stories that feel more real.

  9. #84
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    I forget why I said "Shin-Ra, Rufus aren't inherently evil". Maybe I did mis-spoke, I don't know anymore

    I agree Vrykolas. It comes down to personal want in a game. To me, previous FFs set standards for the next one in the series. Each numbered FF game needs to be better than the predecessor. Arguably, nothing has been able to top FF7 in overall scope of enjoyability. Since the dawn of the Playstation era (discounting the FFs before FF7), FF9 is the only one to get close enough to FF7. However, this is all based on personal opinion.

    In the end, I found no real enjoyment (outside of Sazh) in FF13. It felt like a chore to make it through the game and I have no desire to go back and do all the quests after the game is over.

  10. #85
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    It was a half-assed story line and most of the chracters in the game were more annoying than anything else. I couldn't stand Fang or Saz. Also I don't like how the game forced you to play every single character. Also Lightning randomly breaking off from the group all the time and then having to solo a mob with just here = gay

  11. #86
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    What yo talkin' about, boy?

    The only time you ever have a single character is in a couple of Eidolon fights (which are heavily scripted and not really proper fights) and a couple of fights where you are supposed to use Eidolons just to show them off (Snow in Palum-Polum and Lightning on the Grand Prix circuit etc).

    And even if you did have just one character, Lightning is probably the best choice you could have anyway. She's the fastest attacking Commando, and can easily take down waves of people all by herself.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrykolas View Post
    The only time you ever have a single character is in a couple of Eidolon fights (which are heavily scripted and not really proper fights) and a couple of fights where you are supposed to use Eidolons just to show them off (Snow in Palum-Polum and Lightning on the Grand Prix circuit etc).
    I think that what Derimu meant was that the game makes you use all the characters at some point in the story and you have no choice but to use them, and not single character fights.

  13. #88
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    Well, I don't see what the problem is with that, at all.

    This is not a WRPG, its a JRPG. And in JRPGs, a specific story is being told in a specific way. That means all the characters contribute, not just the ones you like the most. JRPGs need more of this, not less IMO.

  14. #89
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    I prefer a good scripted game rather than a random event game any day.

    Don't think FF XIII's story was the best, but I did liked it.

    And for the first half of the game I didn't have to spend time deciding which character to use.

  15. #90
    Onion Kid Black Wolf's Avatar
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    People hate it because it's different, it's that simple. They hate FF7 and it's the end of the old, hard FFs and they hate FF13 because it's something different and new, just like FF7. The main difference is FF13 wasn't as revoluntionary as FF7 nor was it as good considering how good FF7 was in its generation.

  16. #91
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    i hate it because it F'D up my PS3, a new slim model, and after a week, this game destroyed it.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageboy View Post
    i hate it because it F'D up my PS3, a new slim model, and after a week, this game destroyed it.
    Sony console hardware sucks, really. I'm on my third PS2, after 2/3 years it stops reading games.

    Except for the PSX, it was their first, so they had to do reliable hardware to build up a fan base.

    I love the PSX and PS2 games, but I hate the console (after my experience with PS2 I obviously didn't buy a PS3).

  18. #93
    That One Guy SuckItEasy's Avatar
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    I hate this game for many reasons, which I posted in another thread, but I'll explain myself here too.

    -Too linear in the first half or so of the game. Then, you get to Gran Pulse and it's more open, but possibly TOO open.
    -The characters were boring when you compare them to previous characters of the series.
    -Story was lacking. See "characters" above.
    -Nothing really felt Final Fantasy-ish about the game.
    -The battle system was a mess. I know they wanted to go fast-paced, as opposed to the slower battle systems of previous games, but this was too fast-paced, in my opinion.
    -It just seems like they focused too much on making the game look pretty and didn't give enough focus on other parts.

    XII was better in every way, with the exception of graphics maybe, but XII's graphics were still really good.

  19. #94
    If you have the greatest aim, keep it in your soul Almíranos's Avatar
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    I suppose it was to be expected. FFXIII was doomed to be disliked. It is very different from other titles (bar the FFVII compilation) and has a completely different battle system. Personally I think people's expectations are far too high at this stage as far as storylines are concerned. What do you expect? A world wide best seller novel sort of story? For heaven's sake, look at the caliber of the movies that are being released now-a-days. I'ld much rather play FFXIII then waste my time on watching that crap.
    I think they did a good job with FFXIII- it just seems to me that many people expect the moon and aren't content with the earth beneath their feet.
    As far as battle systems go, the only type I particularly like is Real Time fighting. If a game doesn't have that then I don't really care what kind of battle system there is.
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  20. #95
    Grand Shriner arthurgolden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almíranos View Post
    Personally I think people's expectations are far too high at this stage as far as storylines are concerned. What do you expect? A world wide best seller novel sort of story? For heaven's sake, look at the caliber of the movies that are being released now-a-days. I'ld much rather play FFXIII then waste my time on watching that crap.
    I read an article today on this very topic: [Hidden link. Register to see links.]

    I don't think it's a bad thing to expect gaming to evolve as an art form. In fact, expecting as much is inevitable. What's maybe unfair is that they delivered a Final Fantasy game, and we've moved on. We've played other, more sophisticated games and don't want to go back to the cryptic, scattered, derivative themes and plots of the old FF games, especially if many of the new gameplay elements (such as the battle system) are boring. Visuals can't carry a game alone.

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  21. #96
    Lord of Curry Dragoncurry's Avatar
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    Personally I think people's expectations are far too high at this stage as far as storylines are concerned. What do you expect? A world wide best seller novel sort of story? For heaven's sake, look at the caliber of the movies that are being released now-a-days. I'ld much rather play FFXIII then waste my time on watching that crap.
    They didn't fail with the story. The story wasn't bad. The world just wasn't fleshed out and I felt no connection to the people of Cocoon or Gran Pulse. Direct comparison: Spira. By the end of the game, even if you hated it, you could not deny that you had a connection with the people of Spira, and you knew their motivations, their various factions and why they were important to the story. Final Fantasy 13 did not capture that. That reason was why many of the previous RPGs were so strong (FF4,6,7,9,10).
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  22. #97
    If you have the greatest aim, keep it in your soul Almíranos's Avatar
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    So what would you all have done differently? As for fleshing out characters- you are all aware that we are in a minority of the worlds population who really care about such things. Put it to you this way, they have to cater to a wide range of people and some aren't as sophisticated as you or I. What annoys me is that they obviously have great potetial but are limited by their market and profit margines. They will probably never get to deliver to us what they could fully produce because of todays 'I want it and I want it now!' players. I personally do not hold them accountable. Once upon a time, people weren't so demanding.

    We've played other, more sophisticated games
    Such as???

  23. #98
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurgolden View Post
    We've played other, more sophisticated games
    Quote Originally Posted by Almíranos View Post
    Such as???
    Depends on the individual in question. Speaking for myself, I found BioWare's offerings to be far better than some of the FF series (FFX, X-2, XII and XIII), but that's just me. Knights of the Old Republic for one, even though it's a old game now, is still superior to FFXIII, just my opinion that's all. Hell... even the old AD&D PC games (like Treasures of the Savage Frontier, Curse of the Azure Bonds or the three Dragonlance games) or Sierra's Quest for Glory series are superior to FFXIII (Especially the Quest for Glory games... they are just that damn good ).


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  24. #99
    Lord of Curry Dragoncurry's Avatar
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    Knights of the Old Republic for one, even though it's a old game now, is still superior to FFXIII, just my opinion that's all
    There is no doubt.

    So what would you all have done differently?
    The only thing I would have done differently is 1) increase the depth of the Cocoon populace (as I responded to Vrykolas in the free-roam thread and 2) made more clear cut villains. A lot of the side villains were also lacking in depth, even though they looked cool (for example, the officer dude when Snow was making a ice sculpture using Shiva in the town square area thing).

  25. #100
    If you have the greatest aim, keep it in your soul Almíranos's Avatar
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    This is indeed a question of opinions but in what way exactly were the villians lacking in depth (or the Cocoon populace for that matter)?

    And as far as I'm concerned Star Wars spin off games have never interested me in the slightest. The films were fine but I find the games pathetic. Just my opinion.

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