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Thread: Why do so many people hate this game????

  1. #51
    Lord of Curry Dragoncurry's Avatar
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    Fun and hectic CAN go together, what the crap are you babbling about?
    The Paradigm shift battle system, where every switch was disjointed and took away from the combat experience imo. What are you talking about? Is it...

    something where the focus is high pressure, low time limit...
    Yeah, doesn't really sound like FF13's system. Which might have made it a better game, although I don't know by how much.

  2. #52
    Hey, guess what! I just stole your heart ~<3 Jitan Toraibaru's Avatar
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    Funny enough, I don't get that from playing the game - Every situational paradigm change can make a difference, and if you're not paying attention to who is situated as what, you're going to probably screw up without realising that you should have zigged with one paradigm instead of zagging with another.

    I just think the overall point of it was lost on you, perhaps, and that's where the issue lies.
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  3. #53
    Rogue Squadron Captain Rogue Leader's Avatar
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    I played this game. I was so stoked when I first bought it because it was the first Final Fantasy game I ever bought (or played for that matter). Though I heard it would be turn based, I picked it up anyway. I don't hate turn based combat really (I mean, I've never really played a turn based game), I just think its somewhat of a relic from an era where it was necessary because of hardware limitations, but I was ready to come into this game with an open mind and love it. But, quite frankly, I got bored with it. The linearity really hurt it here; I came into this game expecting a large vibrant world, towns, NPCs, dungeons, the works! In fact, a slogged through the long hallway that was the first two CDs just to get to the third CD, because I just knew that the "real" Final Fantasy XIII was around the corner. When I found out that none of the above things were in the game, I lost interest completely. Though the game somewhat opened up later, really, I was just running around doing the same thing I was before, and that was battling, and, to be frank, the battle system didn't redeem the experience.

    With, the battle system it felt like Square was trying to go for a turn-based/action hybrid that just didn't quite work for the following reasons:
    1. Controlling one character-the fact that you could only control one character pretty much takes the tactics out of it. Thought the paradigm system somewhat makes up for this, but not enough.
    2. Auto Battle- really, with this option, the battles become mind numbingly tedious
    3. Losing when your player character dies- really, do I need to go into detail here? I probably lost more because of this than anything else, and it makes no darn sense when you've got people in your party who can resurrect you and Phoenix Downs!!!!
    4. Not having a backup team- Really, you have six people in your group and only three fight at one time. So what the heck are the other three doing while your fighting? Why can't we cycle teams if they are all not fighting together (which is wall banger in and of itself)?
    5. Cycling through menus- going back to the hybridization of the combat system, I hated the menus. Really, since the game only uses the control stick and two buttons, could we not map some functions to the other buttons or even have a voice recognition system so you could bark out orders, like in Tom Clancy's Endwar, a fiercely underrated game. The menus made sense when the games were still real turn based games and you could still do everything on your turn. Now, you are consistently rushed to do everything to keep up with the computer which moves as if this is an action RPG. There were a few times when I lost because I was in such hurry to get something, I pressed the wrong thing ("I wanted Potion not Antidote!"), and that is infuriating.
    6. Posing- The paradigm system helped keep it interesting for a while, but your characters' incessant need to "pose" when they shift, even as they're being attacked, is just stupid.
    7. Suspension of Disbelief: Really, does this system make any sense? Turn based was alright, because it was uniform; everyone took turns. In this game, you are constantly being attacked, and yet can't move on your own, or attack consistently, thus destroying the game's believability.
    8. Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory

    The story, was ok, but was only really understandable if you read the datalogs. This didn't bother me as much as it bothered some people, as I like reading, its just that it is not how a story should be told. Though it was OK that the story started in the middle of all the action, it just didn't handle this too well. What was lacking was a "Tidus-like" character: a clueless POV character who would need to have things explained to him, thus, by virtue, explaining things to the audience. Because this game lacks that, everyone just throws around words without frame of reference, and even some cut scenes can only be perfectly understood if you read the datalogs, and that is unacceptable. The characters were a mixed bag of cool and annoying.

    The Crysterium (not sure if thats how you spell it) was bloated and pointless and a simple level up system would suffice. Also the system by which you leveled up weapons and gear was also bloated and unnecessary, as you are constantly finding new stuff anyway and thus, don't really need all the leveling up. Also, money got harder to find later in the game, and the game finds itself hindered by several difficulty spikes.

    In short, this game had a lot of potential, but squandered it. I came in expecting to be blown away, now I'm just angry that I wasted my money, and because of this game, I might just swear off Final Fantasy. Though the production values were good, that's about it. This game felt like all flash and no substance, and that is disappointing. I may buy Versus XIII (if I get a PS3), but that may be it. Though you can say that this game is hated by many because its "Japanese" or Final Fantasy, really that's just avoiding the fact that this game has real problems, and most people simply didn't like it for these problems.

  4. #54
    Onion Kid snaek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Leader View Post
    I don't hate turn based combat really (I mean, I've never really played a turn based game), I just think its somewhat of a relic from an era where it was necessary because of hardware limitations. The linearity really hurt it here. I was just running around doing the same thing I was before, and that was battling, and, to be frank, the battle system didn't redeem the experience.
    ff13 is so far from traditional "turn-based" combat and for me, totally did redeem the experience. if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you'd see it in a different light. there are a few problems with it though--my biggest of which is the ui, which is quite a mess.

    With, the battle system it felt like Square was trying to go for a turn-based/action hybrid that just didn't quite work for the following reasons:
    1. Controlling one character-the fact that you could only control one character pretty much takes the tactics out of it. Thought the paradigm system somewhat makes up for this, but not enough.
    theres a lot of tactics still. but a lot of it has been taken out of battle and into pre-battle preparation. if you don't like spending time in menus, you won't like this game as much. theres also a hell of a lot of microing that must be done with fairly precise timing, i.e. using the 'tortoise' battle team of 3 sentinels to defend against a powerful attack.

    2. Auto Battle- really, with this option, the battles become mind numbingly tedious
    i've barely used this option, so i don't know the full functionality of it. if you don't like it, don't use it.

    3. Losing when your player character dies- really, do I need to go into detail here? I probably lost more because of this than anything else, and it makes no darn sense when you've got people in your party who can resurrect you and Phoenix Downs!!!!
    you either like this game mechanic or you don't. there's nothing innately wrong with this mechanic.

    4. Not having a backup team- Really, you have six people in your group and only three fight at one time. So what the heck are the other three doing while your fighting? Why can't we cycle teams if they are all not fighting together (which is wall banger in and of itself)?
    like i said, a lot of the tactics have been transfered into pre-battle preparation. if you don't like spending time in menus, you won't like this game as much. again, theres nothing innately wrong with this mechanic, you either like it or you don't. compare it to a tcg (trading card game): you can't bring a whole box of cards to a battle, you can only use one single deck for a battle. a lot of strategy goes into building that deck almost as much as playing the deck itself.

    5. Cycling through menus- going back to the hybridization of the combat system, I hated the menus. Really, since the game only uses the control stick and two buttons, could we not map some functions to the other buttons or even have a voice recognition system so you could bark out orders, like in Tom Clancy's Endwar, a fiercely underrated game. The menus made sense when the games were still real turn based games and you could still do everything on your turn. Now, you are consistently rushed to do everything to keep up with the computer which moves as if this is an action RPG. There were a few times when I lost because I was in such hurry to get something, I pressed the wrong thing ("I wanted Potion not Antidote!"), and that is infuriating.
    i'll give ya this one. the ui does indeed suck, as i stated earlier.

    6. Posing- The paradigm system helped keep it interesting for a while, but your characters' incessant need to "pose" when they shift, even as they're being attacked, is just stupid.
    again, this is another mechanic that's not necessarily bad, rather you just don't like it. do you think it would be balanced if you can insta-switch between paradigms? don't you think that would be a bit overpowered? this mechanic requires you to think more and use the paradigm shifting more tactically. you said you wanted tactics, didn't you? button mashing paradigm shifts wouldn't be as tactical as precisely timed paradigm shifts imo.

    7. Suspension of Disbelief: Really, does this system make any sense? Turn based was alright, because it was uniform; everyone took turns. In this game, you are constantly being attacked, and yet can't move on your own, or attack consistently, thus destroying the game's believability.
    i'll give ya this one too, but not for the fact of disbelief, rather i don't think it makes for a good game mechanic. i would've preferred perhaps a grid system in place, or like you said give the player some control. right now it is completely random element that can either help you or hurt you.

    8. Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory
    then how would you explain the storyline? while i don't agree that it should've been there from the start, i did feel the progress was dreadfully slow, so they should've introduced them much much sooner.


    i've played most ff's (missed out on iv and skipped xii), but i'd have to say this is one of the better battle systems out there. i'd rate it lower than ffx/ffx-2, but better than vii, viii, and ix (vii comes really really close though).

    one thing i do miss though is a mini-game. ffviii's battle system wasn't my cup of tea, but damn was that mini game all sorts of awesome.

  5. #55
    Lord of Curry Dragoncurry's Avatar
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    i've barely used this option, so i don't know the full functionality of it. if you don't like it, don't use it.
    Liking or not liking it doesn't change that after using Libra, you don't have to play the game. Mechanic-wise, there's no difference to being able to pick 4 different kinds of strikes on Lightning than one kind. It is only for show (aka Lightning doing a flip or Sahz shooting behind his head), but auto battle speeds up clicking 4 abilities.

    It is incredibly tedious. Even if you didn't like auto-battle, they way they designed the moves/fighting system was stupid.

    if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you'd see it in a different light.
    I did grow up with traditional fighting systems, and although the initial impact the fighting system had on me was impressive, it did not pan out in my opinion. I appreciate the move towards a new direction, but small things, like the Paradigm shift doing a camera pan over all three characters individually as they "shift" combined with the fact that you're shifting all the time keeps battle strangely disjointed at times. I think it's too flashy and not really necessary. Again, you can say that this is a personal issue but a lot of things in their combat system makes the actual fighting disjointed and in a way trivialized (flips aren't cool when you do it 5000 times and neither is knocking enemies into the sky 5000 times).

    again, this is another mechanic that's not necessarily bad, rather you just don't like it. do you think it would be balanced if you can insta-switch between paradigms? don't you think that would be a bit overpowered? this mechanic requires you to think more and use the paradigm shifting more tactically. you said you wanted tactics, didn't you? button mashing paradigm shifts wouldn't be as tactical as precisely timed paradigm shifts imo.
    I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn't overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you're responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.

    Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory
    This was never an issue with the game. Final Fantasy 4 purposely threw your party into disarray all the time. I'm not using FF4 as an model for comparison but the lack of party members shouldn't affect game flow. The only reason it sucked (at least for me) is that the environments lacked real depth. The only area that felt really good was the very beginning when you feel rushed and chased and in an industrial area which was awesome. After that, poop.


    Also even if you think it's one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting. It's been 6 years since FF12, and given the potential of FF13's battle system, small things like the posing during Paradigm shifts, the naturally limiting nature of having a Paradigm system, and the need to constantly shift take away from the flow of battle. By spinning the camera and having 4 attacks per "turn" instead of one doesn't speed up the battle, it just makes it more clusterfucky, if that's the right word. There's not enough substance in the combat system.

    ---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

    You have to shift about 7 to 8 times in order to set up a fight and get the enemy staggered. There is no skill or technique involved, just a switch between presets. Even then, in order to keep up Debuffs during an "attack phase" you would need to do a shift that distracts from the flow by literally cutting the camera across the screen, in order for you to switch to that. If you didn't encounter this or "get" this from playing the game, then you used the basic 4 and one or two additional ones to get you through most fights and didn't realize that the battle system is incredibly limited and disjointed by forcing to you shift roles midfight, preventing you from fighting while keeping up heals and debuffs/buffs. You don't NEED to do this but in order to effectively fight, you should be doing this. After 500 fights, you end up saying fuck this, and use 4 paradigms and auto battle. At the end of the game or when you get bored of using 4, you may use 6, but it's the same preset switching that doesn't allow you to freely shift during a fight depending on what YOU want to do and instead focuses on a preset combination of moves.

  6. #56
    Rogue Squadron Captain Rogue Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoncurry View Post
    Liking or not liking it doesn't change that after using Libra, you don't have to play the game. Mechanic-wise, there's no difference to being able to pick 4 different kinds of strikes on Lightning than one kind. It is only for show (aka Lightning doing a flip or Sahz shooting behind his head), but auto battle speeds up clicking 4 abilities.

    It is incredibly tedious. Even if you didn't like auto-battle, they way they designed the moves/fighting system was stupid.



    I did grow up with traditional fighting systems, and although the initial impact the fighting system had on me was impressive, it did not pan out in my opinion. I appreciate the move towards a new direction, but small things, like the Paradigm shift doing a camera pan over all three characters individually as they "shift" combined with the fact that you're shifting all the time keeps battle strangely disjointed at times. I think it's too flashy and not really necessary. Again, you can say that this is a personal issue but a lot of things in their combat system makes the actual fighting disjointed and in a way trivialized (flips aren't cool when you do it 5000 times and neither is knocking enemies into the sky 5000 times).



    I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn't overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you're responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.



    This was never an issue with the game. Final Fantasy 4 purposely threw your party into disarray all the time. I'm not using FF4 as an model for comparison but the lack of party members shouldn't affect game flow. The only reason it sucked (at least for me) is that the environments lacked real depth. The only area that felt really good was the very beginning when you feel rushed and chased and in an industrial area which was awesome. After that, poop.


    Also even if you think it's one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting. It's been 6 years since FF12, and given the potential of FF13's battle system, small things like the posing during Paradigm shifts, the naturally limiting nature of having a Paradigm system, and the need to constantly shift take away from the flow of battle. By spinning the camera and having 4 attacks per "turn" instead of one doesn't speed up the battle, it just makes it more clusterfucky, if that's the right word. There's not enough substance in the combat system.

    ---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

    You have to shift about 7 to 8 times in order to set up a fight and get the enemy staggered. There is no skill or technique involved, just a switch between presets. Even then, in order to keep up Debuffs during an "attack phase" you would need to do a shift that distracts from the flow by literally cutting the camera across the screen, in order for you to switch to that. If you didn't encounter this or "get" this from playing the game, then you used the basic 4 and one or two additional ones to get you through most fights and didn't realize that the battle system is incredibly limited and disjointed by forcing to you shift roles midfight, preventing you from fighting while keeping up heals and debuffs/buffs. You don't NEED to do this but in order to effectively fight, you should be doing this. After 500 fights, you end up saying fuck this, and use 4 paradigms and auto battle. At the end of the game or when you get bored of using 4, you may use 6, but it's the same preset switching that doesn't allow you to freely shift during a fight depending on what YOU want to do and instead focuses on a preset combination of moves.
    Couldn't of said it better myself.

    To answer Snaek:

    -Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn't mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I'm criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game's detriment, hampering the overall experience.

    -The reason I didn't like not having all team members at the beginning is because you were really limited by having only two active party members at one time. Though I understand that it was necessary for the story, it still hurts combat. That being said, Dragoncurry hit the nail on the head.

  7. #57
    ... topopoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snaek View Post

    you either like this game mechanic or you don't. there's nothing innately wrong with this mechanic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Leader View Post
    -Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn't mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I'm criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game's detriment, hampering the overall experience.
    That Mechanic only made sense on the SMT games, because you were controlling Pokemon shit & even though it's justified (barely).

    IT'S STILL FUCKING ANNOYING.

    Nothing else to add.

    Continue...
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  8. #58
    Onion Kid snaek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragoncurry
    Liking or not liking it doesn't change that after using Libra, you don't have to play the game. Mechanic-wise, there's no difference to being able to pick 4 different kinds of strikes on Lightning than one kind. It is only for show (aka Lightning doing a flip or Sahz shooting behind his head), but auto battle speeds up clicking 4 abilities.
    are you kidding me? the battle system is way more complex than you make it out to be. using different skills builds the chain gauge faster than doing something like, lightning strike->lightning strike->lightning strike. on the topic of chain gauges and the character lightning, who is more physical than magical, i'm also assuming that you think the strike abilities are always better than the magic spells? this isn't always the case, magic spells fire off faster than the strike skills, essentially again leading to faster chain gauge building at the expense of less damage. this is an option that auto-battle does not allow. this game has so many subtle details in the mechanics, and if you keep using auto-battle, you won't get to really experience how great they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by dragoncurry
    I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn't overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you're responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.
    how are you losing a turn exactly? unless you're shifting with a full meter, which should only be done in-case of timed tactics like the "tortoise" paradigm shift. did you realize that theres a hidden cooldown timer than gives you a full free bar with a paradigm shift? because of this, sometimes it can be advantageous to shift even when the situation doesn't call for a different team, just to get the free turn.

    edit: unless you mean the silliness of the animation pose itself? in which case, i agree it does look silly. but i think there does need to be some kind of "freezing of action" so you can't just spam paradigm shifts non-stop, whether or not this is done using a pose animation or not.



    Quote Originally Posted by rogue leader
    Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn't mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I'm criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game's detriment, hampering the overall experience.
    this mechanic is in numerous (team) games, for example a classic fave of mine, (srpg) shining force 2. a more extremely obvious example is chess--do you complain that you lose the game after your king dies? it's a mechanic in place that requires you to protect your king, or your leader.

  9. #59
    ... topopoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snaek View Post
    A more extremely obvious example is chess--do you complain that you lose the game after your king dies? it's a mechanic in place that requires you to protect your king, or your leader.
    No just no... There's a big difference.
    In Chess the formation starts with the King with plenty of protection & the number of units to dispose is much bigger than this game. That's just for starters.

    What if you want to build your leader in the Tank or a Melee Warrior Class?
    The game obviously is forbidding you to do it that way if the "PartyLeaderDies=Game Over" is an unavoidable mechanic. Hence it's a mechanic that doesn't work properly in that kind of game. Hence, It's annoying.
    What you're constantly playing an Escort Mission? Everybody knows that kind of thing sucks if it's treated badly.

    There are plenty of other ways to make the game difficult & fair to the player.

  10. #60
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  11. #61
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    Both Mass Effect games also use the 'Team Leader dies/Game Over' mechanic, and you never hear anyone complain about that.

    Despite the fact that you cannot physically control the other characters, I feel like you still have a lot more say in how your team mates play in FF13, than you do in Mass Effect 2. In FF13, you get to set the skills and the style they will adopt in a number of different configurations. You can see a tanglible difference in what each party member is contributing to a fight at any one time.

    In ME2, the characters can be broken down into 'Do they have Sniper Rifles?' If they do, they are useful, because all the computer has to do is point and shoot. If its anything else, the character is a waste of time. (Because if they're just sitting in cover shooting, a Sniper Rifle is better, if they are going forward, they frequently catch themselves on scenery or blunder into enemy fire).

    Biotic powers have to used with such finesse in that game (due to shields/armour and the fact that several of the powers are just rubbish anyway), that they are only truly useful when you are using them yourself, or taking time out to aim for your team mates. And even then, the times when that is better than just letting them ripple off their unlimited ammo sniper shots is practically zero.

    You want to talk about lame gameplay decisions - try that one on. Your team mates have unlimited ammo, but you don't. Not very nice of them to hog all the ammo and not give you any!

    The fact is, ME2 makes only token nods to your team mates. Its primarily based on how you control the main character, and the best thing your team can do is just stay out of your way and let you do all the work. Because their AI is simply not sophisticated enough is to make best use of their time in a DPS capacity for example.

    If ME2 is the future of RPG gameplay, then we're all in trouble.

    FF13's gameplay is fast, fun, but also rewards strategic thinking and sound execution. If you don't like it, then fine. But a lot of people do like it (as the recent poll on this forum showed). Even the western reviewers who largely dismissed the game, admitted the gameplay was the best in any JRPG for years.

    Square are by far the industry leader in trying to bring JRPG gameplay forward. The Star Ocean games, the FF games from FFX-2 onwards, all have enjoyable combat which is very much not something you associate with JRPGs.

    But what do people praise instead? Lost Odyssesy...

    Random battles, 'you go, then I go' turn system... And this is a game that is often touted as one of the best JRPGs of this gen. I just don't understand some people.
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  12. #62
    Rogue Squadron Captain Rogue Leader's Avatar
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    To respond to Vrykolas:
    I've never played any of those other games, so I was just responding to the question at hand. If your leader character dies in Mass Effect 2, so what? I've never played Mass Effect 2 anyway, so I don't know much about that game, but to just point out somethings:

    1. From what I've seen, its more like an action-based RPG, like Kingdom Hearts, so your main character dying might work out better in that game. In a more tactical game like FFXIII, where anyone can be revived, its just a wallbanger.
    2. What goes on in that game has no bearing on what's going on with FFXIII. We are talking about a specific title, and thus, we should stick to that title. Though other RPG's have problems (like Mass Effect) we should only stick to the subject at hand, and avoid comparisons.
    3. A lot of people liked FFXIII (and its battle system), just as many didn't. I'm just trying to point out why a lot of people didn't. And to be honest, I thought a lot of professional reviewers went too easy on the game and overlooked or glossed over its faults (IGN giving it a 8.9 for example).

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Leader View Post
    (IGN giving it a 8.9 for example).
    Don't pay attention to Professional Reviewers, specially IGN, they're kinda hipocritical & contradictive.

    Yeah, they gave it 8.9 & also it's the game in the 1st place of 2010 dissapointments.

  14. #64
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    1) Everyone can be revived in Mass Effect 2 (you use Medi-Gel, which everyone has, unless they've decided to heap it all on your character in place of the infinite ammo they are carrying - I know which of those I'd rather have). So no, it doesn't make any more sense in that game.

    2) Mass Effect 2 was brought up earlier in the thread, in a direct 'It's better, because it does things like *this* way). I assumed it was fair game. I understand what you're saying and I agree, but I'm not going to let people drop in Mass Effect 2 praise without any challenge. There's already far too much of that going on around the internet. If they believe in the game, they should have no problem defending it.

    3) You say 'just as many didn't', but you have no proof of that. One of the most common things you'll hear about this game is 'It gets much better from Ch10 onwards' - because that's when you finally get the full combat experience. Party/Team Leader selection is unlocked, the enemies becomes stronger and the areas more open to grind and just enjoy combat in.

    A lot of people don't like JRPGs anymore, and will refuse to say a good word about them, because they want to feel they made the right choice, jumping ship to Bioware etc.

    The poll here was very limited in numbers of responses, but it suggested to me that a) fans of JRPGs did like the combat, whatever else they felt about the game, but also b) the low number of responses showed a general apathy towards the game.

    And that last one is (I would suggest) for reasons other than the combat. Because the fact is, unless you play through to Ch9-10, you haven't experienced the combat system properly. That you have to wait so long is a problem (the biggest problem in the game IMO), but its not the fault of the actual combat system itself.

    And I'm no more a fan of the critics than you are (Top's example of IGN shows exactly how much you can really trust anything they say). They big things up on release, then forget about them - it's just the way it works.

    Like I've said before, critics give the scores they think their viewers want to see, and will tolerate. If they feel the love for a certain game or genre is waning (as in this case), they feel more able to speak their mind. And they did make it plain that they had problems with this game, which in turn makes me more confident than their love for the combat was genuine, than if they had just rubber stamped 9s and 10s over it.

  15. #65
    Rogue Squadron Captain Rogue Leader's Avatar
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    To answer the above:

    1. Yes, I understand that Mass Effect was mentioned earlier in this discussion. What I said about not bringing any other games into the discussion wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but everyone in general. I'm seeing these other games being brought in to this, and I feel they only distract from the conversation and its main point. Hence, "Since we're are talking about X, lets discuss X, not X,Y, and Z."

    2. My statement about "just as many people didn't like FFXIII" was a general statement, and wasn't specifically referring to this website, or any poll, or any particular number of people; I was simply saying that a lot of people liked it, a lot of people didn't.

    3. Saying it gets better "from ch. 10 onwards" or 20 hours in, or any of those other excuses people commonly use when talking about this game really aren't points in its favor; in fact, it only strengthens the arguments against it. I did play waaaay past that point, and still felt unmesmerized by the combat. While part of this stems from the game literally wasting hours of play time to "get good", I also feel that the combat system and its problems still play apart in this, thus I, by the time the game opened up a bit, really didn't enjoy the combat anymore, and since that was the only thing you really do in this game, well, that was it for me.

    4. Now, this needs to be addressed. While you can say people just have the hate-on for JRPGs or Final Fantasy, you must not use these subjective views (and the subjective views they inspire) to simply explain the game's unpopularity that way. Just because some people don't like JRPGs, does not mean that is the only (or even #1) reason it gets bashed. One must primarily look at the game itself.

  16. #66
    Lord of Curry Dragoncurry's Avatar
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    You all have misunderstood what I said when I brought up Mass Effect 2. I was not saying it was better than FF13 in any way. It was in direct response to:

    .ff13 is so far from traditional "turn-based" combat and for me, totally did redeem the experience. if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you'd see it in a different light. there
    My only comment about Mass Effect 2 was,

    Also even if you think it's [Final Fantasy 13] one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting.
    My POINT was that FF13's battle system was not innovative ENOUGH and not groundbreaking ENOUGH given that there was a 6 year gap between FF12 and FF13. The conclusion that I was trying to get at by BRIEFLY mentioning ME2 (which someone else later expanded on for no reason, I had never said a word about party leader dying being a bad thing) was that:

    There's not enough substance in the combat system.
    That means that there's more flashy jumping around than any satisfying real fighting. I didn't even know how much damage Lightning does half the time because her numbers are mixed with the casters in one giant clusterfuck.

  17. #67
    Shriner
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    until a game gives me multiple options as an end game boss, all games will be linear to me. until i can play a game 3times in a different fashion, and have only a few overlapping towns, a game will remain linear. all these so called Open RPG's, still leaving you going to the same 6towns/dungeons what have you, just to get to the same boss, the fact that you can do it in any order...doesnt really make it more appealing.

    if every game was made the same way, we would all get bored. we would still be stuck with tiny sprites, but due to people trying new things, and pushing the envelope w/ graphics, and various game play ideas, we would not be where we are today in gaming. and as far as somethings not being innovative enough? well, how many times have people bitched about a games combat system being broken, just b/c the company tried to be far to innovative with it?

    13 is one of my friends favorite games, not sure if it will be one of mine. i hope i enjoy it though.

    i know this wasnt entirely addressed to the OP comment, but ehh, i felt it related to everything else.

  18. #68
    Grand Shriner
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    I would prefer to keep other games out of this too, but people insist on comparing products. I have already laid out on the 'Do you like the Battle System' thread, the reasons why I like the combat in FF13, judging the game purely on its own content. And there seems little point in writing it all again, when people could just look a few threads down for it.

    The point we were discussing was the battle system. I feel it is entirely fair to say that unless you have played to Ch. 10 and beyond, you cannot give an objective view on the combat, because that is when the battle system is truly unlocked. As I say, the fact you have to wait so long is a problem, but not one with the combat system itself.

    I did not say the game was unpopular simply because JRPGs are out of favour, but I maintain it is a strong contributing factor. Perhaps that is a subjective opinion, but so is your opinion that Just as many people hated the combat as loved it, when you have no evidence of that, and are ignoring what critics and the only measure of that statement here suggests.

    IMO, people have a lot of love for the FF franchise, but they don't like JRPGs. Because FF went overground and into the mainstream for FF7 and again for FF10. They bought the game hoping to recapture the feelings they had when the series was huge, and it didn't do it for them.

    Which is disappointing and one of the primary reasons that despite the fact that I like the game, I included it in my 'Most Disappointing Games' list of last year. Because whilst I feel it is a game, and is being unfairly maligned on several points (the combat for example), it most certainly was no classic, and not nearly great enough to recapture its fanbase.

    But again, that is IMO a seperate issue from the combat, which is what we were discussing. I do not believe in any way, shape or form, that the combat system was the reason people didn't take to the game. In fact, I think it was hugely beneficial, as it mollified the critics' otherwise dismissive tones, and kept them interested.


    Dragoncurry:
    Sorry, if I misread your comments (that'll teach me not to skim read!) Your comments are indeed more thoughtfully presented than I was giving them credit for - not to mention that I mixed in other people's comments with your arguments. Hey. it was late, I was tired...

    The fact remains though, I am very worried about ME2's recent mainstream popularity. I continue to view it as an appallingly dumbed down version of ME1's system, and it has sacrificed far too many RPG features in an attempt to capture cross genre appeal. Making RPGs into 3D shooters isn't progessive - its assimilation!

    But anyway, I was careless when I read your comments. Mea Culpa.

  19. #69
    <(^_^<) ^(^_^)^ (>^_^)> omega911's Avatar
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    I personally enjoy this game. I've yet to beat it but do plan on it. While it's in no way the best Final Fantasy it's still interesting. It's mainly the story and characters that draw me in. The battle system can be interesting, but it's kind of like watching a continuous cut scene.

  20. #70
    Grand Shriner ddrmaxman's Avatar
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    I liked FF XIII quite a bit. Also it's the only FF game I have ever actually played from beginning to end.
    hmm. . . A device that makes bad weather. . . :/

  21. #71
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    ===FF XIII / VII SPOILERS AHEAD!!===

    I have played (and finished):

    - Final Fantasy - made a perfect save*
    - Final Fantasy II - also made a perfect save*
    - Final Fantasy III - perfect save* too
    - Final Fantasy IV - only missed the damn pink puff tails...
    - Final Fantasy V - perfect save*
    - Final Fantasy VI - perfect save* still in progress
    - Final Fantasy VII - perfect save*
    - Final Fantasy VIII - perfect save*
    - Final Fantasy IX - perfect save*
    - Final Fantasy X - perfect save* (YES, even the 200 bolts in thunder plain...)
    - Final Fantasy XII
    - Final Fantasy XIII

    So I think I can say something about Final Fantasy XIII, I already finished it and I liked it, I can't say it's the best Final Fantasy but it's also not the worst. The story wasn't so bad as some people say it was, it did have flaws and plot holes, and a lot of it wasn't explained but the general feel was good.

    Since I've been a lot tired lately I actually enjoyed the linearity so I didn't have to bother too much about exploring large multi-branched areas. The lack of diverse side-quests is a problem, the only thing you have is "search for almost hidden treasure" and "hunt special texture change enemies".

    The music was great! It doesn't feel like the old FF, but then again only Nobuo Uematsu could do that... And still, it was great music, I read an interview with the compositor Masashi Hamauzu and he said he had always wanted to make music for a whole FF and hoped he was up for the task, I think he was!

    The Crystarium reminded me of FF X grid, it rewards players for winning more fights (so you'll have more points to get more abilities), they only removed the Str/Mag/etc spheres from the equation. It could have been more "original", but all the other RPGs are also stagnant in this area (most of them anyway).

    After a few hours of gameplay the Paradigm shift starts to have a strategic importance, you can actually die in some boss fights if you're not using the right ones. It adds more strategy to the battles, but it only does so because we are limited to using one character only, and also because some Paradigms behave differently from others (2 COM will never attack the same enemy if there is more then one, RAV will attack the same target always).

    The battles were "different", no turns, no MP, only ATB cost, I only used autobattle for healing and deeper into the game I had to do the healing myself due to the crappy A.I., yes it's not perfect, and sometimes I raged about how unfair it was (after loosing thanks to the gameplay - NOOO!! What are you doing Vanille! You're supposed to heal ME! If I die it's GAME OVER, you don't heal Fang, you HEAL ME DAMNIT!!), but I remember doing the same thing in older FFs fighting other unfair (true, it was the boss that was unfair, not the gameplay) bosses...

    But I still had fun doing battles, and I never got tired of the battle theme (Blinded By Light) and that's a feat. Mad about the limitations, but having fun.

    We also have to analyse this further, some of the master minds behind FF are gone from Square, I'm sure Hironobu Sakaguchi would have been important in guiding the project to higher grounds, I know I missed him on FF XII and also Yasumi Matsuno too. So for all it's worth and considering all this... it could have been a lot worse.

    I enjoyed the character design, and their motivations, they feel more like real people (real people that can jump real real high...), even their skin looks real (you can see different shades of skin colour! But that's graphics, which I don't think I'll ever hear someone say: It could look better... thoses crystals look a bit fake...), but I won't lie, I miss the old character designs, they were more "excentric" in a way.

    And I also enjoyed the monster design, I can't say that for FF XII (seriously? That guy with the sword is supposed to be a Behemoth? Yeah, I know we also have those in this FF, but at least they look like a Behemoth before they get up! ...and don't get me started on the coeurls and malboros).

    I did miss a more specific villain, Dysley only appeared, like, 3 times (I know I'm exaggerating), there wasn't enough time to develop them, characters like Jihl Nabaat or Yaag Rosch or even members of Team Nora seemed too secondary. In the end most of these characters felt unfinished (like AVALANCHE members dying too soon for you to feel anything for them in FF VII).

    Final Fantasy XIII is a good game, It's not a perfect one or a bad game, really, It can't be a bad game when you already have so many bad games to compare it with! And it will never be the "best game there is" 'cause that game only exists in our mind, and it's everything we ever wanted

    * for me a perfect save means collecting all treasure and having at least 1 of each item (unless the odds are 1%, I ignore it then since I have a life), all summons, defeated all secret bosses, all ultimate weapons, all cards (FF8/FF9), all quests done, probably missing something here but you get the picture. And no, I don't get my characters to the maximum level, that kills all the challenge, I hate grinding.

  22. #72
    Onion Kid
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    Well, I'm going to dodge all the minor issues and delve into the major portions that I either liked or disliked.

    When I started the game, it was all good, until I reached the 2 hour mark, when I realized the tutorials got all jumbled up or weren't properly brought up when you first run into something. For instance, in the very first battle in a large number of FF games, you typically get a small tutorial or moment to familiarize yourself with the game play mechanics (usually a tutorial). Now I've played nearly all the FF games out there, but I still like the tutorials in case they add something new in there some where. However when I ran into the first several battles I still had yet to run into a proper tutorial. Next thing I noticed was the auto-battle. Literally, for the first 2 to 5 hours of the game, I played, was nothing but hitting the "x" button with no usage of the directional pad, except outside of battle. As I got further into the game, sure I was finally forced to do something more than physical attacks on a couple occassions, but mostly it was still auto-battle. Unfortunately, I think the AI was too good in some areas when deciding what spells or abilities to use. I didn't have to plan anything out. I will devle into the pacing of the battles in a moment.

    The second part of the gameplay I have some issues with is the paradigm system. When I finally reached the point when I can decide who I want in my party (or when party members kept being switched out on me), I found I have to keep re-setuping up my paradigms to the way I wanted them. The game didn't save my preferences at all when concerning my paradigms. I spent a decent amount of time setting everything back up again when I shouldn't have to do that everytime someone leaves or enters the party. Beyond this problem, in-battle switching between paradigms was horrible. As was mentioned in previous posts, the extra posing was unncessary and time consuming. They were looking for fast paced battles, yet everytime you switched paradigms (which for me was quite often in late game battles), it became rather annoying. I also found that if I'm switching paradigms, I can still get hit by the enemy in mid-pose. What the hell is up with that? Getting hit in mid-pose is ridiculous. The time spent on posing, could've been used curing an ally or using one of the Sentinals abilities for protection (like Taunt or something). (As a side note, I didn't even use FF13's version of the gambit system at all, everything was at default from start to finish and the game was still too easy, with the occasionally high spike in difficulty for no apparent reason).

    Next part, the "Espers". What the hell? Did we just enter Transformers or something? Going past that small issue, I had no real use for the Espers at all. This has been a constant problem with me and the entire FF series: the Summons. I hear alot of people say "Oh the summons are awesome and strong and I use them because they look cool!", yet not once have I heard someone legitly say they are a necessary part of their strategy in any late game battle (except for the hard optional bosses in FF7, FF8, FF9, and maybe FFX: i.e. Omega Weapon, Emerald Weapon, Ozma, etc). I never once had to use an Esper in this game because I needed to in order to win (except when its required by the game). What was the point of them if they're not a necessity for many of the strategies. This also leads me into how the Espers are obtained. Sure, it was believable the first couple times you obtain an Esper, how the Esper comes out when one of the characters is feeling self doubt and depressed over something, but when its a cookie-cutter situation for ALL of the characters, that just becomes ridiculous. Whatever happened to obtaining a summon because you wanted to protect someone, or how about obtaining an Esper because you found it in an old keepsake from, say your father (this could've worked for Hope easily). Re-using the same scenes just with different characters was terrible.

    This leads me into the story. Plot-holes and unexplained events aside, I did actually enjoy the story to a degree. I felt the story lacked when it came to a villian. Each FF game always had a flapship villian with several smaller villians in supportive roles to the larger. Using the most popular FF games as examples: Sephiroth, Jenova, and Shin-Ra in FF7; Ultimecia, Edea, and Seifer in FF8; Fate, Kuja, and Queen Brahne in FF9; and Sin, Seymour, and the Maesters in FFX. Unfortunately, the only standout-ish villian that I saw that made a very small impact on the story was the final boss, which we battle 3 different times. I don't even register anyone else as villians in the entire FF13 game. The story itself, while the base of it was strong, the characters were weak. Sazh is the only character I actually enjoyed and had fun controlling because he was more down-to-earth.

    Overall, I have alot of problems with the game, some personal, alot not, however these are just the main points of the game that I feel led to the disappointment. The game has so much potentially, but the writing and bad choices in gameplay design just led the game to a more average rating (if not lower in some books). I liked the music and the graphics are awesome, but if there's not strong gameplay or story to complete the circle, the experience is going to be that much weaker.

  23. #73
    Grand Shriner
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    I take great exception to Seymour, Sin and the Maesters being held up as examples of great villains! But I won't argue that for the most part, FF13 lacks strong enemies (but then so do many games these days).

    Personally, I like Barthandelus as a villain too, but he only really comes into his own in the final 3 chapters. He's extremely good in the cutscenes surrounding the final battle, particularly when he merges with Orphan. The other villains didn't get much screen time, and I think killing off Ji'hil Na'baat so quickly and easily robbed Sazh of his main storyline.

    It seemed like a bit of a MGS2 'bait and switch' (given that Nabaat featured in the trailers and had generated a lot of 'love to hate her' interest prior to release.


    And IMO, the game has no unexplained events or plot holes. The story is extremely solid, easily one of the better FF stories IMO. And I don't accept that the characters are poor in this game. I don't think they are among the best of the best in the FF series, but I like them more than FFX's party for example (Auron excepted).

    I also can't see what plot holes there are. It all seems to make sense, although the storytelling sometimes makes it a little difficult to follow (and the game is infamous for keeping chunks of important information exclusively in the Datalog).


    I think the game has confounded the critics, to a large degree. They seem to be running this way and that on it. Some praised it on release, then trashed it later when they saw what public reaction was (IGN), some trashed it on release, then softened as the year went on (Edge gave it 5/10, but later admitted the game was probably the game of 2010 that would most divide opinion, as there were good aspects to it).

    And the fact is, the game has been a huge smash hit in Japan. Their critics and public adored it, and their demand for a sequel is the whole reason FF13-2 is being made.

    But it will obviously take a much better JRPG to interest western audiences en mass again. The only way I can see that JRPGs (and FF) can challenge WRPGs supremacy is to do something off the charts huge. Super complex, hugely ambitious in size and scope.

    I think SE could do a lot worse than consult with Obsidian. It seems a perfect match - SE need help developing characters and worlds that appeal to western audiences, Obsidian need bigger budgets and quality control staff to iron out bugs and glitches.

    Obisidian are IMO the best RPG writers around, SE make some of the most flawlessly presented and financed games. So if Obsidian and SE's collaboration on Dungeon Siege 3 goes well... fingers crossed.

    A FF made by both of them, could be the west/east RPG crossover of the century.

  24. #74
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    I wasn't going to post in this thread, as my previous post/s I think explained my own feelings towards this game. However, after reading Vrykolas last post, there were a few points I'll comment on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrykolas View Post
    And IMO, the game has no unexplained events or plot holes. The story is extremely solid, easily one of the better FF stories IMO. And I don't accept that the characters are poor in this game. I don't think they are among the best of the best in the FF series, but I like them more than FFX's party for example (Auron excepted).
    That's your opinion and you are entitled to that. IMO none of the cast in FFXIII had any appeal to me whatsoever, they just seemed bland and generic to me even moreso than FFX, X-2, XII's cast of characters. I couldn't form any sort of attachment to them or feel their need to do what they have to.

    I think the game has confounded the critics, to a large degree. They seem to be running this way and that on it. Some praised it on release, then trashed it later when they saw what public reaction was (IGN), some trashed it on release, then softened as the year went on (Edge gave it 5/10, but later admitted the game was probably the game of 2010 that would most divide opinion, as there were good aspects to it).
    This proves my point about these so called 'unbiased' critics/reviewers. None of them seem to really know what game they are reviewing and give it whatever score, similar to other reviewers who put the work in to reviewing the game, and ad lib their review. In all honesty, there's only one way to fully find out if you'll like the game or not: Try it yourself. Go and rent it before buying, play it, then formulate your own opinion of it. However, too many of the mindless masses are too stupid (or don't have the brains etc) to do this and just swallow any old tripe they read.

    And the fact is, the game has been a huge smash hit in Japan. Their critics and public adored it, and their demand for a sequel is the whole reason FF13-2 is being made.
    Just because it was a huge hit in Japan, doesn't mean anything. Quote sales numbers etc, whatever. It all comes down to the individual playing the game, as to whether they like it/love it/hate it/whatever.

    Obisidian are IMO the best RPG writers around, SE make some of the most flawlessly presented and financed games. So if Obsidian and SE's collaboration on Dungeon Siege 3 goes well... fingers crossed.

    A FF made by both of them, could be the west/east RPG crossover of the century.
    Considering Obsidian's track record, and I have to disagree. I can name two examples of games Obsidian had their hands on, which on the individual level were quite good (and I did enjoy them), to the masses they weren't as huge in success as was hoped. Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords. Personally I love this game and still play it at least once a year, however the bugs, cut plot elements etc, made this game not as enjoyable as the previous. Alpha Protocol. This game had potential to be a great game... on paper. But how it was executed in development/production (game system etc) it was lacking. Also, being compared by many as a 'poor mans Metal Gear Solid', hurt it as well.

    I doubt if SE and Obsidian joined forces to make a FF, that it'd be the 'west/east RPG crossover of the century' as there are many other developers which are making JRPG's/WRPG's, which IMO that is, are far superior to what the FF franchise has become now. Personally, I find the though of another '-2' FF game to be just a attempt to curry favor with those of the masses who think SE do no wrong. FFXIV is proof that SE is failing in some regards as to what the fans themselves want.


    The Code of the Sith
    Nw l kash zo tash antai kash tik sh sot.
    Pro sh sot nu gauti ty k
    Pro ty k nu gauti midwan
    Pro midwan nu gauti pergaleas
    Pro pergaleas nuyak aras svistuis
    Tave qy sik sekleti won nun


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  25. #75
    Sewer Diver Smarty's Avatar
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    Obsidian only make buggy games because they don't have cash. One of their few strong points are the writers who don't need that much funding. SE has plenty of cash to go around, that's why a collaboration would be awesome. Still, Dungeon Siege 3 isn't getting me excited at all. Never been able to get into the series that much, personally. However, there is another East/West RPG collaboration coming up...
    Spoiler!


    Hell yes, I'm excited for that.

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