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Thread: Dispute of Final Fantasy 8 - Rinoa and Ultimecia

  1. #1
    Weakest and cutest legendary Pokemon. Latias's Avatar
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    Dispute of Final Fantasy 8 - Rinoa and Ultimecia

    FF8, always known as of the best FF series in Square. However, compared to FF7 or 9, there was too many mystery in this game that related to both protagonist (Squall and Rinoa) and even the final boss (Ultimecia). Unlike FF7, the mystery was explained in the later of the game, but in FF8, there was some questions remain to debate.

    To clear all the mist in the clouds, Dissidia FF has the answers related to such mysteries of these characters. I don't know where is the source (as my friend in FB sent me the information in Chinese), if you happen to know it please let me know so that I can credit that people.

    The information here was translated and edited a bit.

    Rinoa is Ultimicia

    Maybe it sounds weird, but please read on. I strongly believe that rinoa and ultimicia is simply the same person. The following is from the game I said, is indeed a fact, but certainly not square in the evaluation of everything that I say can only be used as an ordinary argument also. At below, I will enumerate my point of view.

    1. Sorceress never dead in this story.
    Why? Very simple, this game not mentioned how a sorceress was killed or dead, even Adel. Squall killed Adel in Lunatic Pandora, but the game can be said is Elone transfer the power of soceress to the past of Adel so Adel was not killed. Also, we all can see, Cid was much older than the Edea.

    We see the following passage is Ultimecia dying (in the last one) to say:
    "Looking back to your childhood ... ..." "Your feeling ... ..." "Your words ... ..." "Time ... ..." "... will not wait forever ..." "No matter how hard you to pay close attention to ... ..." "It still goes ... ... "

    Why 'time will not wait?' No matter how hard to pay close attention to? It can be an argument that Rinoa tries to keep Squall alive in the later of the age, but she failed.

    Ultimecia want to change the past -> Squall died -> final Rinoa as Ultimecia -> then go back to the past. This is a cycle, in fact, only two possibilities:
    • Ultimicia go back to the future of their cause (which she did not go back to the reason).
    • Ultimicia clearly what they want to change anything, go back, the success (in this case she will not let Squall die.)


    2. Location of the final stage
    Why at behind of the orphanage? At the beginning of the game, there was such phrases: "I'll be here waiting, I promise ... ..." and so on, and Rinoa also said she would go there to find Squall. Why Ultimecia has the world at her when her fortress is located in the back of an orphanage? The answer is, she was there waiting for Squall. Even though the fusion of her and the GF make her lost her consciousness and memories, she still remembered this promise that she made with Squall. The space-time compression that she made was just to meet Squall in the past.

    3. The ring of Squall
    Remember the ring, Griever? The ring was with him at the beginning. Then Zell takes from Squall, and gave to Rinoa. In the final boss, Ultimecia summoned Griever. Why Griever was under the possession of Ultimecia at the later of the game?

    4. Wings
    Ultimecia has black wings, Rinoa has white. White = Good, Black = Evil. No support facts on this yet.

    5. Ending Animation
    There was 3 places in the ending movie, Ultimecia appears. It was pretty short, and hard to recognize. Squaresoft is not stupid to waste the effort to make she appears, no? I know, I say these things without any authority, but can you people do the things I said in the game appear?

    6. After FF8 game, Dissidia
    DFF has an odd dialogue when Ultimecia meets with Squall (before the fight). 踊りましょうか?"



    Remember when Squall meet Rinoa for first time? Rinoa asked Squall to dance.Why Ultimecia will asks Squall to dance?



    Then, the EQ of Ultimecia.



    These 3 weapons, ヴァルキリー、カーディナル、シューティングスター, are all Rinoa's weapon! Particularly the weapon that Ultimecia uses when LV 100, known as ューティングスター(shooting star).

    I think so, although there is no square. It might be something unbeliveable. Why Squaresoft left so much mysteries in the end? Is it Ultimecia (Rinoa of future)?

    DFF : Ultimicia's last words: "Have you thought about? ... ... The kind of feeling when young, then when the words of the mood ... ... ... ... ... ... grow up ... ... give up anything left behind After what ... ... ... ... "can be seen as Ultimecia's past as a can be Rinoa, and the memory with Squall in the past.



    Although the evidence is not sufficient to fully determine the Ultimecia = Rinoa, but many players are already beginning to believe that the harsh reality ^ _ ^
    FF8 has suddenly increased number of degrees, maybe this is how Square Enix/ Squaresoft to earn money...


    What is your opinion on this?

  2. #2
    ... topopoz's Avatar
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    Well with evidence & stuff, I found it pretty stupid...

    Mainly because people don't look at the Human side of things...

    You a sorceress, with the power of time-traveling, want to see your fallen beloved again, would destroy all existence?

    LAME

    I'm not saying that it's not this theory isn't true or false though, I'm only saying that it just further proof of how poorly written the game was, a great idea transformed into garbage because of the stupid way of execute it.

    P.S: At least this theory is more solid than the [Hidden link. Register to see links.]
    V for Valhalla

  3. #3
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    My opinion on this is false. While some of the points you make may seem credible, they are merely either A: plot device or B: Reference to FFVIII in general (aka the whole Dissidia part). However, I'll offer a point by point counterargument.

    Point 1:
    Sorceress never dead in this story.
    Why? Very simple, this game not mentioned how a sorceress was killed or dead, even Adel. Squall killed Adel in Lunatic Pandora, but the game can be said is Elone transfer the power of soceress to the past of Adel so Adel was not killed. Also, we all can see, Cid was much older than the Edea.
    There are more than just one Sorceress in the game, and more than likely ones which we don't see of in the game itself. This isn't a case of 'The Chosen One' from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where one Sorceress dies, another is tapped. There are multiple Sorceress's in FFVIII's World (even in one boss battle I recall), so imo this point is one of multiple possibilities.

    It seems that the official word from Square is, indeed, found in the FFVIII Ultimania Guide. But it's not a direct comment on the issue; rather, it's that Square mentions the fact that Sorceresses have the same lifespan as a regular human (which I think even Odine mentioned something along those lines as well). Laguna Loire himself stated that Ultimecia was a Sorceress from far in the future. So, if a Sorceress has a normal human lifespan, how can Ultimecia be Rinoa? That would, of course, make the theory impossible, since it absolutely requires Rinoa to live much longer than is typical for a person.

    Point 2:

    Location of the final stage
    Why at behind of the orphanage? At the beginning of the game, there was such phrases: "I'll be here waiting, I promise ... ..." and so on, and Rinoa also said she would go there to find Squall. Why Ultimecia has the world at her when her fortress is located in the back of an orphanage? The answer is, she was there waiting for Squall. Even though the fusion of her and the GF make her lost her consciousness and memories, she still remembered this promise that she made with Squall. The space-time compression that she made was just to meet Squall in the past.
    Have you ever considered the thought that Ultimecia chose that location as a symbol? Build a fortress at the birthplace of your enemy, can send a psychological message to your foe. The promise, was what Squall and Rinoa gave each other that if they were separated, they'd return to that field. There are, once again, multiple reasons behind such a position for a powerbase. Maybe it was a nexus of power Ultimecia could draw upon, maybe it was (for her) a strategic location, maybe (as I said before) it was chosen for the psychological effect.. or maybe she just wanted a beach front property.

    Look at this picture:



    The SeeD's in that picture dont appear to be dead for long, it appears that she, being that she hated SeeD's, killed the SeeD's of her time before casting the Time Compression spell. No SeeD's to get in her way once she did that, she could cast it without interruption. The castle is there for the sake of it being where she last stopped, also, why on earth build a FLOATING castle if you are just going to plant it in one place? The final place she fought was the orphanage and hence the dead SeeD's.

    Point 3:

    The ring of Squall
    Remember the ring, Griever? The ring was with him at the beginning. Then Zell takes from Squall, and gave to Rinoa. In the final boss, Ultimecia summoned Griever. Why Griever was under the possession of Ultimecia at the later of the game?
    ... You can't be serious. Griever embodied all the traits that Squall values, but also is Squall's interpretation of the Ultimate Guardian Force. Ultimecia summoned a likeness of Griever from Squall's mind, in a attempt to intimidate Squall and Co.

    Point 4:

    Wings
    Ultimecia has black wings, Rinoa has white. White = Good, Black = Evil. No support facts on this yet.
    And that means what exactly? As a sorceress, Ultimecia is almost the mirror opposite of Rinoa. For example, Ultimecia is an evil sorceress with black wings, while Rinoa is pure and has white wings. Additionally, Rinoa has black hair and Ultimecia has white-silver hair. Ultimecia also wears a prominent red dress, while Rinoa's sweeper is colored light-blue. Also, Rinoa uses Angelo while fighting and Ultimecia is known in two battles (including the third battle with her) to use Griever. Griever is based on a lion, while Angelo is a dog.

    While that could be construed as proof that Rinoa's mental state became fractured and she became unstable and then became Ultimecia after Squall and the others died, it also has counterpoints to the theory as well. Same thing could be used to say that Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are the same being as well (which even after the movies etc... there are still some who believe that Darth Vader is a older form of Luke Skywalker from the future... ugh).

    Point 5:

    Ending Animation
    There was 3 places in the ending movie, Ultimecia appears. It was pretty short, and hard to recognize. Squaresoft is not stupid to waste the effort to make she appears, no? I know, I say these things without any authority, but can you people do the things I said in the game appear?
    What's your point here? Haven't you thought that maybe, just maybe, those scenes might've been made BEFORE the actual ending of the game was made? Case in point, look at FFVII and those who (with the use of a cheat device) hack Aeris back into their party after her death. There is some text for her in other areas, not much mind you, but there is some. A case of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing. There were multiple development teams working on FFVIII (like FFVII and other FF titles), and they don't always get the same message.

    Point 6:

    After FF8 game, Dissidia
    DFF has an odd dialogue when Ultimecia meets with Squall (before the fight). “踊りましょうか?"

    Remember when Squall meet Rinoa for first time? Rinoa asked Squall to dance.Why Ultimecia will asks Squall to dance?
    Merely a attempt at taunting Squall psychologically imo.

    These 3 weapons, ヴァルキリー、カーディナル、シューティングスター, are all Rinoa's weapon! Particularly the weapon that Ultimecia uses when LV 100, known as ューティングスター(shooting star).
    Firstly, when you are attempting to use the above as proof it would be appreciated if you offered the information in English or add the English translation next to it. Second, haven't you considered the thought that they were added as a 'in-joke' by SE for the fans? No? Didn't think so.

    I think so, although there is no square. It might be something unbeliveable. Why Squaresoft left so much mysteries in the end? Is it Ultimecia (Rinoa of future)?
    Why did SE leave such a mystery? Simple, people love mysteries.

    DFF : Ultimicia's last words: "Have you thought about? ... ... The kind of feeling when young, then when the words of the mood ... ... ... ... ... ... grow up ... ... give up anything left behind After what ... ... ... ... "can be seen as Ultimecia's past as a can be Rinoa, and the memory with Squall in the past.
    Or that could be a reference to her own childhood, not linked to Squall and Co. at all. Nowhere in that does it mention Squall or hint at the others.

    Although the evidence is not sufficient to fully determine the Ultimecia = Rinoa, but many players are already beginning to believe that the harsh reality ^ _ ^
    FF8 has suddenly increased number of degrees, maybe this is how Square Enix/ Squaresoft to earn money...
    Far as I'm concerned, SE has the final say in this... and they said Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia. Deal with it.


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    No she is not. I know this because Square Soft replied to people saying the have no relation to one another.

  5. #5
    L'Cie spheregrid94's Avatar
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    Woah :/ i've always wondered but I think they're different people, if it had been rinoa would she have had the heart to fight herself & her lover Squall? Eh doesn't seem too likely to me.

  6. #6
    Onion Kid severian's Avatar
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    Quistis is Artemisia (there is no "Ultimecia" unless you could Dissidia)

    if you remember what Quistis told Squall, and Artemisia coming to Edea's house... you will know what I mean

  7. #7
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by severian View Post
    Quistis is Artemisia (there is no "Ultimecia" unless you could Dissidia)

    if you remember what Quistis told Squall, and Artemisia coming to Edea's house... you will know what I mean
    .... Artemisia is Ultimecia's name in the Italian and German versions of FFVIII. You are incorrect.

  8. #8
    Onion Kid severian's Avatar
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    ARUTEMISHIA in japanese (artemisia as pronounced).... I wonder who is incorrect ^^

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    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by severian View Post
    ARUTEMISHIA in japanese (artemisia as pronounced).... I wonder who is incorrect ^^
    You are the one incorrect, and here's why:

    Taken from [Hidden link. Register to see links.]

    Ultimecia (アルティミシア, Arutimishia in Japanese, Artemisia in Italian and German, and Artemisa in Spanish) is the primary antagonist and the Final Boss of Final Fantasy VIII.
    I say again severian, you are incorrect.

  10. #10
    Onion Kid severian's Avatar
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    アルティミシア is artemisia in katakana.... while ultimecia is just the AMERICAN missnamer, just like tina became terra - artemisia became ultimecia ^^

    artemishia = アルティミシア (write it either artemisia or not, it is still the real name of the same person we are speaking of)

  11. #11
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    It's generally accepted that Artemisia is the Italian and German translation of Ultimecia, just like Arutimishia and Artemisa are the Japanese and Spainish translation of her name as well. Just different translations of the same name, which is Ultimecia.

  12. #12
    Onion Kid severian's Avatar
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    how can the original be a "translation" of "ultimecia" that ONLY the americans use?
    Her name is Artemisia in the rest of the world ^^

  13. #13
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Ultimecia is the name of the final boss in FFVIII in Australia as well, and I'm willing to bet in most English speaking countries, her name is Ultimecia. The only difference is in the translation of the game to the various different countries under the PAL system, as most of those countries don't speak English (France, Germany, Sweden, Italy etc). Case in point in the French version of FFVIII, Rinoa is translated as Linoa. Her dog Angelo is translated as Anjero in another version (with her full name being Sant' Angelo di Roma as revealed in the FFVIII Ultimania). Even Seifer's name is translated differently in the German version as Cifer.

    In different countries, some of the names are changed due to either translation errors or (and more commonly) altered by the translation team.

  14. #14
    I Am The One They Call: Meowth Mixer Tanis's Avatar
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    I was thinking either Ultimecia is a crazed Rinoa with 'the uber power' or Rinoa & Squall's daughter that goes ape shit.

    I'd like to think it was something along those lines because I'm an ass.

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    Onion Kid severian's Avatar
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    thank you Revan dear ^^

  16. #16
    Onion Kid Tsukasalink's Avatar
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    They did?! Wow [googles it]

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    this should solve euri thing remeber
    Griever the winged lion on squall ring thats
    the gf u fight at the end when u face Ultimecia which is Rinoa.
    and Rinoa was the one holdin on to squall ring Griever the most powerfull Gf there is.
    so the u have it rinoa is ultimecia

  18. #18
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorboyz22 View Post
    this should solve euri thing remeber
    Griever the winged lion on squall ring thats
    the gf u fight at the end when u face Ultimecia which is Rinoa.
    and Rinoa was the one holdin on to squall ring Griever the most powerfull Gf there is.
    so the u have it rinoa is ultimecia
    LMFAO

    Ok, for the last damn time... RINOA IS NOT ULTIMECIA!

    True Ultimecia summons Griever, how she draws Griever from Squall's memories, as he imagines that Griever is the most powerful GF of them all.

    Read my first post in this thread and accept it.

    So deal with it gatorboyz22

  19. #19
    Silent Shriner #0
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    It seems that only one or two people in this thread aren't brain dead. Square already said they are NOT the same. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa. Deal with it.

    And I lol'd at revan and severian's conversation. You guys are such nerds.

  20. #20
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDX View Post
    It seems that only one or two people in this thread aren't brain dead. Square already said they are NOT the same. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa. Deal with it.
    This is true.

    And I lol'd at revan and severian's conversation. You guys are such nerds.
    Meh whatever... Truth be told, I'm sick to death of pointing out the obvious to retards and assholes who think they know better than what SE themselves have stated. Anyone else who posts in this thread saying something along the lines of the OP, severian or gatorboyz22 can think whatever the fuck they want. I'm done with this shit.

  21. #21
    Silent Shriner #0
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    You get riled up way to easily over something so simple. People believe whatever they want to believe, whether it be god or the flying spaghetti monster or if Rinoa is Ultemicia. But still believing in something that is obviously false (especially when the creators say it is) is, I'm sure you'll agree, pretty stupid. But hurling out insults in the way you almost always do in debates (whether you're right or wrong) is, also, pretty stupid. That's what made me laugh because not just by what you were saying or how you said it, but how they responded as well.

    For me, I'll just tell them the truth and move on. If they don't believe the truth and are too lazy to find out themselves, then they only make themselves look even more stupid than they probably already are. No use lingering about if you ask me when it comes to something like this; Square saying themselves Rinoa is not Ultimecia and people still think they're the same. Just makes no sense!

  22. #22
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Maybe so, but honestly I don't really fucking care. Tired of all the bullshit arguments and stupid debates etc. No wonder so many have left this place over the years and more will continue to do so as well. If people want to think that Rinoa is Utimecia or whatever other lame ass theory they have, as of now, I don't fucking care.

    Just so damn sick and tired of all this shit... and you should know me by now IDX that I'm just sick of all this. Besides, if other members can get away with flinging insults left, right and center, why can't I?

  23. #23
    Silent Shriner #0
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    You were the one that told me about how you hate those members. From my perspective it looks like you're becoming one of them. When someone is simply wrong, let them know. The other members who like to compare their internet dick sizes would do that but also single them out so the lot of them could start discussing their IQ levels, if they passed high school, or whatever they can think of to make themselves feel "bigger". Now I have no problem telling people they're wrong if they are or if they have their own theories on certain things (in this case, video games) where the developers really didn't say anything, then I'd just listen knowing full well that whatever theory they come up with will 90% of the time be completely wrong. This case is different, obviously, but with a simple "you're wrong" and telling them the developers said it themselves is all that is needed. From my perspective, you're starting to behave the same way as the idiot members you don't like. I happen to find it hypocritical is all. Now I'm not trying to pick a fight because you're actually one of the very very few members I respect. I just noticed that this has been going on for a while now.

    But calling them stupid after saying that Square said these two are different people entirely I think is justifiable for obvious reasons. Because you know, it's like they're calling the ones who created the game liars pretty much.

  24. #24
    jen' jari iv tave sith Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Maybe so... but if the hat fits...

    Also, the reason for a lot of my posts becoming so negative in responses etc can be attributed to some problems I've been suffering from for a while (High Stress/Anxiety, Severe Anger Management issues amongst a few... there are some others but I won't go into detail here.).

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    Honestly, even if Square has rebuked the theory, I continue to look at the story that way regardless, because it prevents Ultimecia from being an incredibly shitty villain. Her motivation leaves me feeling exactly nothing in regard to her, because it's shockingly generic. Yes, most of the villains in Final Fantasy want to take over/destroy the world, but most have the courtesy to have personal reasons for doing so. Sephiroth is driven to madness by the Jenova project; Seymour lusts for power after being shunned from society as a child and gaining the Final Aeon; damn, even Shuyin had a backstory that explains why he's doing what he's doing. Not Ultimecia.

    With rebuking it, I think Square kind of shot themselves in the foot. I understand that they want the game to end up on a happy note and stick with the 'love conquers all' message, but still, no need to out and deny it.

    I will admit, though, I do enjoy how Rinoa's and Ultimecia's facial models are identical.

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