Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 72 of 72

Thread: Ok... Been thinking about giving this a second try..

  1. #51
    SHIT! Neg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    38,658
    Not all games are going to be like that~

  2. #52
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,273
    Well, let's see...

    1) Side-quests.
    You're confusing a lack of interesting side quests, with no side quests at all. Yes, they don't show up until Chapter 11, but that's actually not too rare.

    Take FF7 - the vast majority of the side quests in that game, could only be accessed with the Highwind, and after you rescued Cloud (to reopen the Gold Saucer).

    Most JRPGs wait until near the end (generally when you receive your airship), to put in side quests. The first half of the games, are usually always linear walks from A to B, with very little in the way of proper side quests.

    The side quests in FF13 are unimaginative monster bashes, and the lack of character specific side quests for weapons, extra background info and new abilities is a shame.

    But the game is quite clear that this is a game operating on a very specific timeframe. Unlike other games where you can justify the hours and hours you spend on non-plot tasks, FF13 has an ongoing, uninterrupted narrative.

    Your characters are slated to turn into monsters at any moment, because of their brands - they don't have time to mess around traipsing back and forth on fetch and carry quests, chocobo breeding or whatever else.

    2) A good battle system.
    You say this like it's a given that FF13 doesn't have a good battle system. But that's just your opinion - lots of people have stated that they actually really like the battles, even if they don't like anything else about it.

    The criticism of 'it's just pressing attack all the time' is both somewhat correct and utterly preposterous (because in the vast majority of JRPGs, it's par for the course that you can win battles against almost any regular opponents by just pressing attack, including the heavyweights like FF7 and FF10).

    It's one of those cases where you either think its streamlined or dumbed down. I would argue that the public's patience for drawn out battles has passed. Games need to move and play quickly these days.

    3) Towns.
    Towns are the bane of the JRPG! Yes, okay, sometimes you get an interesting one (usually a major plot city), but most JRPG towns, villages etc make you want to slit your own throat with the sheer tedium of them.

    It all starts with that dreaded 'Sleepy hamlet' music that seems to play in every rural community in JRPGs. Then there is the legions of NPC villagers and townsfolk who you know will have nothing important to say, but because you don't want to miss anything, you talk to every single one of them...

    Towns are a place to buy weapons and that's it. I wasn't sorry at all, that FF13 cut them out. Easily available shops at every save point, and none of the usual agony spent exploring dull towns, full of even duller people.

    4) Sub-Plots.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. I presume you mean character specific quests for unique gear and spells etc. If so, I covered it above.

    5) Exploration - more than one way to go.
    Again, the game does have a good reason why you can't go exploring. I would point out that in games like FF7 and FF10, the game is largely just walking from A to B, usually along a straight road.

    (The flip screÄen format of these older games, means they change camera angles, so it doesn't feel so much like a straight line - but you are still only allowed to go in one direction).

    From Midgar, you MUST go to Kalm, then to Chocobo Bill's, Mythril Mine. (You can visit Fort Condor, but can't do anything of note there), then it's back to the straight line - Junon, Costa, Gold Saucer, Cosmo Canyon.

    Exploring is only fun when there are actually good things to find, interesting scenarios, new locations etc off the beaten track.

    I should point out that FF12 had huge scope for exploration in this way, and was villified by the FF community (it also had lots of side quests, towns etc!)


    Look, the game has its problems, no argument there. But I don't think any of the things you listed were all that harmful, especially in the context of the story.

    I think what can be said is that it definately didn't have that X factor, that the series really could have done with recapturing. THat special something that made you think 'Yes, the series is back!' when you saw it.
    [Hidden link. Register to see links.]

  3. #53
    .
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,974
    I agree with you about towns; they usually are rather boring. But, in most FF titles (for me at least) a lot of the towns are still memorable in their own way.

    But regarding games needing to be faster. . . . That's just because the average gamer anymore has the attention span of an infant.

  4. #54
    ~*~*~ chewey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    7,604
    It doesn't really have anything to do with a person's attention span. The battle systems in older jRPGS just aren't fun at all.
    Because Orphans Don't Have Parents

    With a username like yours, I have to ask: Where you abandoned by your parents and raised in a Orphanage? If so, that explains a lot. If not, that still explains a lot.

  5. #55
    .
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,974
    I'm sorry you feel that way

  6. #56
    ~*~*~ chewey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    7,604
    If you think mashing X while watching slow animations and huge pauses play out is fun then I think there may be something wrong with you. If there's some depth/complexity to the battle system then I am kind of okay with it running at a snail pace, but that is rarely the case when it comes to jRPGs. It's especially not the case in most Final Fantasy games.

  7. #57
    .
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,974
    Then it's official, there's something wrong with me, and millions of other people who helped make Square so rich and famous

  8. #58
    Techchild the Deathbringer Techchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    An Abbey
    Posts
    297
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilentDark View Post
    Then it's official, there's something wrong with me, and millions of other MINDLESS DRONES who helped make Square so rich and famous

  9. #59
    .
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,974
    To each their own.

  10. #60
    SHIT! Neg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    38,658
    People like a lot weirder things than mashing a single button. Plus, there's so many goddamn many people who like jrpgs. Even if the appeal doesn't seem logical to everyone, it exists.

    CC just said it best. Whatever gets you through the night~

    in this case, he isn't alone, by a hundred million miles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Spoony Rocks Harder Than Everyone

    In an attempt to (weakly) justify myself, yes, I do enjoy tipping the sacred cows of fandom every once in a while. Itís fun watching fans get militant and flustered in impotent Internet rage, posting screaming, incoherent diatribes online in retaliation. Once again, I think it all comes back to my own unique blend of hypocrisy and my self-effacing nature. For every Star Wars slam I make, I expose an irrational worship of the old sci-fi show Sliders. Every time I issue an Internet bitchslap against people arguing who the best Doctor is, Iím embroiled in another argument about whether Deckard was a Replicant, and getting in my trillionth argument about AD&D alignments in another forum thread. Iím a fan. My crusade is against blind worship. I love a lot of weird stuff, but I can still admit that itís flawed. I donít care that you love Doctor Who, but donít try to claim that itís never sucked. It has. It does. But real fans can still love something in spite ofĖ no, because of its flaws.

    Thatís me. I love you guys, and youíre a load of flawed, screwed-up weirdos. But thatís okay. I am your king, and you are not alone.

    Iíve raged against furries and weird transgender moogle porn, but damn it, this is America! You want to jerk off to Filthy Multitasking Quistis, hell, throw that picture on the ground, huddle up, and Iíll put five bucks on whoever can bust a nut on her face first. You are not stupid for seeking people you identify with. You are not an idiot for finding friends and feeling like you have somewhere you belong. Your particular brand of happiness might be pretty fucked-up, but youíre not fucked-up for pursuing that happiness. As long as youíre not hurting anyone, wave that freak flag high.
    Believe me, there are a lot of things I don't understand in this world. Plus, it's hard sometimes not to think there is something wrong with someone for liking something that makes no sense to me at all, but I'm always going to try to keep that speech in mind, because it is so the ultimate truth of all situations.

    jrpgs, represent~

  11. #61
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,273
    To pick up on the pojnt about towns, it's usually just the first major city that is good. Midgar, Rabanastre etc. Because they're the jumping off point, where you have to convince people of the world, and why they should care etc etc.

    The rest of the towns are rarely interesting in and of themselves. They only become interesting if they are major plot flashpoints, in which case they get more attention and detail (Deling City in FF8 for example).

    But when locations aren't directly tied to the action, they tend to get short changed. FF12's Arcadia is extremely dull, considering its the capital city of the game's 'Evil Empire'. And what about Nalbina Fortress - an alleyway and a yard!

    Esthar from FF8 is also guilty of this. Yes, there's the initial 'Wow - get this place!', but it quickly gives way to screen after screen after screen of walkways with absolutely nothing of interest.

    You're soon desperate to get out of there, and go somewhere where things actually happen!

    What I'm saying is that I don't object to towns and cities, but they can quickly get really, really boring, unless they have major plot events or plenty of interesting side quests to do in them.

    In a lot of games, you just have to put up with it. You need places to buy new gear, and that means either fudging it and letting you buy equipment anywhere (like with that magic abacus guy from Jade Empire or FF13's terminals) or you have to visit a series of dreary towns.


    Going back to the story for a bit, I'd just like to say also that I disagree strongly that the game 'only gets good from Chapter 10 onwards'.

    It's true that Chapter 10+ see an upswing in the gameplay (you finally have your full team together, can select leader and party members, have all the paradigms, side quests come in, diffculty increases sharply etc)

    Which is all to the good, but some people insist it's the case with the story (and also claim the 9 Chapters leading up to that are uniformly poor). That wasn't my experience at all.

    If anything, I found Chapters 10 and 11 very dull indeed, storywise. Together with Chapters 4-6, they are the weakest chapters in terms of the storyline.

    For the record, I enjoyed Chapters 1-3 very much, although as I said earlier, they do require you to read the Datalog to make much sense of them.

    Chapters 4-6 are pretty awful. Endless truding about in a variety of locations with no real idea what's going on. Sazh and Vanille work well together as characters, but they're awkward as hell to use together in game.

    Lightning and Hope are a much more formiddable team, but their level in the Whitewood in Chapter 5 is very poor.

    Chapters 7-9 are the best in the game IMO. The party comes together, several major plot issues are resolved, and it all leads up to a fight across the enemy battleship that has some great locations and set pieces.

    It's galling therefore that Chapter 10 is so awful. Apart from what is probably the best boss fight in the game, it's like playing the thrice accursed Library from Halo 1!

    Chapter 11 has a great opening Cutscene, but is an utterly pointless level (again, storywise - it's the best for actual gameplay).

    12 is okay, but not as great as the opening cutscenes suggest it will be. Still quite good, but you feel that in older FF games, this would be the kind of thing that ended a disc, not ended the game.

    Chapter 13 is okayish, but it feels a bit like something from Shin Megami Tensei, rather than FF. I enjoyed it, but I was annoyed that only Fang and Vanille were all that important, given that it was the final Chapter and all!

  12. #62
    ~*~*~ chewey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    7,604
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilentDark View Post
    Then it's official, there's something wrong with me, and millions of other people who helped make Square so rich and famous
    Yes. The battle systems were fine at the time but they have aged horribly. You haven't got much of a point when you say people who played the games at the time were fine with their battle systems. For example: people liked Deus Ex a lot when it came out but it's pretty much unplayable these days.

    WINK WINK

  13. #63
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,273
    The only thing you can do, is say whether you thought it was good at the time.

    Old games didn't have access to the new technology of today, so they will feel dated in many cases. That is no fault of those games. It doesn't however excuse systems that were poor even at those times.

    I would argue that FF8's Junction system for example, was far too fiddly. The way they made you have to draw spells for hours, to enhance your stats (which also discouraged you from actually casting them!), was just awful.

    And there are many who argue that FF13's battle system is simply a less interesting version of X-2's system.

  14. #64
    SHIT! Neg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    38,658

  15. #65
    .
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,974
    Quote Originally Posted by Neg View Post
    People like a lot weirder things than mashing a single button. Plus, there's so many goddamn many people who like jrpgs. Even if the appeal doesn't seem logical to everyone, it exists.

    CC just said it best. Whatever gets you through the night~

    in this case, he isn't alone, by a hundred million miles.



    Believe me, there are a lot of things I don't understand in this world. Plus, it's hard sometimes not to think there is something wrong with someone for liking something that makes no sense to me at all, but I'm always going to try to keep that speech in mind, because it is so the ultimate truth of all situations.

    jrpgs, represent~
    Thanks Neg.

    And Chewey, I get what you're saying, but that's your opinion, not mine. I happen to love the old FF games, as well as the newer ones (i.e. the whole series). I don't dislike any of them. You like Pokťmon, I don't; that's how we all differ. The little things like that make us individuals. So just don't worry about my tastes in gaming; at least we both enjoy FFIX!

  16. #66
    ~*~*~ chewey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    7,604
    I had a long post written up but I lost it because the server went down.

    Basically, I like the old FF games too. That doesn't mean you have to like the battle systems though. Even at the time I played them despite the battle systems, not because of them. I don't understand how you could think mashing x through slow battles is good gameplay at all. I certainly don't like it in Pokemon, which I'm kind of a fan of (I only really play Crystal anymore). If I ever do play a Final Fantasy or Pokemon game, I have to play them on an emulator so I can speed through the tedious battles. They simply aren't fun/engaging/whatever at all and that has nothing to do with a person's attention span.

    Also I agree that FF13's battle system is a much less interesting version of the FFX-2 battle system.

  17. #67
    .
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,974
    Well, lemme put it like this. . . . Maybe I like them because they're slow. You know? I do like faster-paced games too, don't get me wrong; it's just that, as I've said, there's a time and place for everything. I've always considered Final Fantasy games to be more about strategy and tactics, more than just 'run around and slice 'em up' kind of games. If I want that, there's a myriad of other titles I can turn to. But FF forces you to use your head a little more to solve your way through some of the tougher battles. Sure, the regular battles (i.e. not bosses) are pretty much just 'mash X or O (whichever it is, depending on the FF title) and watch stuff die before it even has a chance to try and hit you even though it'll usually just miss anyway', and that's fine, whatever, at least they level you up. But then the bosses come along and that's when you need to use a little more strategy. It's not always just 'mash X and watch stuff die'. Sometimes you gotta balance out whether or not to use magic, or an item, or whatever else. Especially I, II, and III; I dunno about you man, but for me those three are freakin' tough! You can't just sit and mash X; you have to really balance out your tactics for winning, or you get raped real quick. So no, it's not always just pressing one button; they do make you think sometimes. Yes, I said sometimes.

    Another thing to factor in; I've played FFIV since I was four years old. At that age, if you do anything enough, it can become ingrained into your brain for life. In that case, yes, the whole FF mechanic became something perfectly normal for me–just as normal as playing Zelda, or Mario, or anything else. I never once questioned it or thought it was strange. And I can openly admit, I probably would not have gotten into these games had it not been for that. I can clearly understand where somebody would dislike them, because when I put myself into the position of having never played them from a young age, it makes crystal clear sense to me.

    Another thing: the storylines. I dunno about you, but I happen to enjoy those aspects of the games, and perhaps the reason most of us put up with the gameplay is for the sake of finding out what happens next. Of course the first three aren't so story-oriented, but so what? I'm one who enjoys them either way. Other people are like that as well. Sure, the stories were simpler in the older titles; mainly V. That's why I really haven't ever gotten into V that much. I did manage to get thirteen hours in, but I just can't be bothered to continue. It doesn't interest me. Mainly because the graphics royally suck, the battle system feels very clunky, the music ain't that great, and the story is boring. So I guess when it comes right down to it, maybe I don't love every FF title 100% equally; FFV is the weakest link for me. But even still, I do plan on trying to master it one day, because the job class system, while done better in III, still does hold some interest even for V.

    I guess what I'm trying to get at is . . . yes, I get why people wouldn't like the series, or many other JRPGs. But for me, there's other aspects that help to make it a worthwhile experience. But that does not mean there's something wrong with me simply because you don't feel the same way; all it means is that our opinions are different, and there's nothing wrong with that. So just don't worry about it

  18. #68
    Maybe we don't exist... Harkus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1,643
    When the battle system gives you a "WIN" button and involves the player as little as possible I argue that it's an objectively bad battle system.

    Towns are awesome. What they do is give you a chance to say "I want to take it at my pace" you can keep moving forward with the narrative if you want or you can shop, talk to NPC's, do side-quests etc. It's breathing space. As I've said before- if, for the story to make sense, important aspects need to be sacrificed then the story should be different. Nobody forced to SE to tell that story.

    With regards to exploration, yes you are right. At the beginning of the games it is- go to A then to B without much chance of starying. BUT, 99% of dungeons, towns, caves etc. in older FF games had at least one turning.... not just a single road. Essentially FFXIII is an RPG with the level design of a dated FPS. Even saying that every FF had secret areas available in the latter stages of the game that could be explored. FFXIII has something like two secret areas, and I say secret loosely. It's hard to hide something in a two meter wide corridor.

    I like the older battle systems, against regular enemies perhaps they are a tad too slow but I still enjoy the battles. Against tough bosses I really like it though, it requires strategy and thought. My favourite battle system is XII's. It is perfect.
    Sorry Player, I'm Noriega crossed with Schwarzenegger
    The orphan maker, orchestrate your fate in a torture chamber

  19. #69
    Onion Gravy gravydude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Ahhh Bisto!
    Posts
    56
    XII's battle system is the best ever, dont play XIII again, play XII XD

  20. #70
    Under the Influence Aniki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    496
    Where were you when everyone was bitching about FF XII battle system 3 years ago?

  21. #71
    Onion Gravy gravydude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Ahhh Bisto!
    Posts
    56
    XD

  22. #72
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,273
    Let's be clear about something. FF12's system has many qualities, but let's not forget that you can FULLY automate combat.

    I.e with Gambits set for everyone, you don't even need to press X to attack. All you have to do is walk around, and in 95% of the game, you won't need to actually do anything at all!

    Because most battles really only need you to attack normally. As long as your Gambits cover the following:

    1) 1 party member at least must have a 'if member falls below HP X, use Curaja etc'.

    2) give each member a Gambit that tells them what to do against flying creatures

    and

    3) give each member a gambit that tells them to attack nearby enemies.


    And that's all you need. The only time the game requires your attention is to keep an eye out for status ailments (and of course, you can automate that too, if you like).

    So let's not quibble about FF13 have a win button, when FF12 has a 'win button that can set to be pressed all the time'!

    And much though I love the game, FF12's system is completely unsuitable for boss battles. It sucks all the individuality out of them, and has by far the worst boss encounters of any modern FF IMO.

    Not because the enemies are bad or the situations are bad etc (I particularly like the Garuda, the various fights against the Judges etc).

    But because the named attacks are harder to spot and don't have the same 'Wow!' effect in such open field combat. It robs the bosses of individual charisma.

    The camera is also an issue. For bosses in earlier games, the camera is set by the director to give a clear view, but make the boss look impressive. In open field combat with a (semi) controllable camera, bosses just look so much more ordinary than those from other games.

    And there's the fact that every boss (every one) simply needs you to buff up, then pile in with combat attacks. And it works for every boss in the game, no thought required.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •