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Thread: Why FFXII Is not Great

  1. #1

    Why FFXII Is not Great

    The Characters suck. There is little to no interaction between them, and the storyline as a whole suffers because of it.

    Think about it, who are all the cool characters? The judges, the soldier who helps you (early on, don't remember his name, he joins as a guest and has a big 2h'er), Reddas.

    Some of them would be sweet to have in party (well I can see why no judges of course), but instead we are left with characters like Penelo who add nothing to the story. The story could be the exact same w/ just Ashe + Balthier + the rabbit chick (maybe). Vaan is the main character? Wrong, Ashe is clearly who the story develops around. I think Square Enix was really trying to pull off a no romance storyline but so far it has sucked. (I'm about 90% done w/ the game) .

    The fighting is better, the liscense + gambit system, all fairly well done, but the lack of storyline and lameness of characters keeps me from being addicted to this game.

    Unless the storyline dosn't really get underway w/ untill the last 10% of the game the storyline is about to be the worst of any FF I've played yet.

    Anybody else agree?

    or at least answer this, WTF is the point of Penelo in this game? Unless something major happens from 90% to completion, she is good for the first 20m when she kind of explains Vaans background through dialogue. That is it.

    Edit: Storyline might be better then X-2.

  2. #2
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    The story IS better then FFx-2 and a lot of them it is just different then most players are use to instead of it focusing on the Characters like past FFs have done it instead focouses on Poltics and war. Character interaction is great but it doesn't appear to be that way because of how dragged out it can become due to Hunts leveling Lp farming and the like it can literally put 12 hours between a Story line part. Also plain losing your way can do that as well.

    Penelo does bring something to the plot usually in the interactions between Larsa and the team is what I rememeber though it has been a little bit since I played the game. Vaan is the Main character because he is unintrested observer in this game his point of view is paramount in most cases Ashe is the Leading lady who most of the story moves around and her choices are drastic factors to the story but the Main character is still Vaan since the idea wasn't for the player to be in control of history but rather an observer.

    In short the game isn't like FFX where you got deluged in Story line nor is it like FFIX where the main focous was the Characters. It is a group trying to bring back a Fallen kingdom while bigger nastier things are trying to use them. It is all poltics which a lot of people don't get fully or don't see all the little details. Play the game a second time around and the plot will make ALOT more sense then on the first Also try to play a speed game to help since as I said the story movement can get dragged out due to all the sidequests.

    Also where are you in the game saying 90% means nothing since I have run into people who think Raithwalls tomb is the end of the game due to the time. Let me clue you in on something 60 hours is the max time I have seen for a Speed run so far and even that wasn't all that much of a speed run. Myself I have the game finished and 90% complete on ALL SIDEQUESTS with a total of 100 hours or so if I ever get to finishing the 100% I will most likely be at 120 or so in time and mine is almost Speed run since I firgued out tricks near the beginning. So tell us where you are Story wise.
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  3. #3
    Onion Kid
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    The story and characters seemed to have a lot of potential, but it never really went anywhere because there weren't enough cutscenes. Most final fantasies have cutscenes almost every five steps which really helps develop the characters and storyline, but FF12 more or less ignored the characters. I didn't mind the politics (the similarities to star wars in the beginning were a bit annoying) but I hope the next final fantasy gives the viewer a little more emotional attachment to what happens to the characters.

    Both Vaan AND Penelo were pretty irrelevant to the story line. At least the battle system was awesome.

  4. #4
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    Vaan was imporant one FFXII set it up for Revanent Wings A DS sequal. Two Vaan was Ashe's Sounding board through a Lot of the game such as the Giraff village and Giruvegan as well as several other places also Vaan provided the Glue between all the Characters Penelo, Balither Fran, and Ashe Basch are all connected by Vaan. Penelo is there for Vaan simiple as that. Balither and Fran came because Vaan hired them with the Shard as a reward. Basch for his grief over reks and his desire to set things right as much as he can. Ashe because they have a similar goal in life to stop just being alive and finding the reason why they live.
    As I said Vaan is the observer he is not irrelevant but rather an imporant piece and glue for the game None of the events in the game wouldn't have gone as planned if Vaan didn't decide to steal from the Palace. Balither and Fran would have stolen the shard and ran off, Ashe would have been lost in the Sewer either killed or picked up by Vayne. Penelo would still be in Rabanastre. And Basch would still be locked up. Vaan was the start of the whole mess and an intregal part of the Story on Ashe's side of it.

  5. #5
    Onion Kid
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    I see what you mean about him being "the glue" but he wasn't a very active protagonist. After the first twenty or so hours, it seems like he's regulated to making random observations while the other characters, particularly Ashe, play a much more obvious role in the plot. Tidus in FFX was an observer too, but he directly influenced the storyline, while Vaan's role in counseling Ashe in the pharos, etc. could have been taken over by Basch.

  6. #6
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    Could have but it would have been lacking. Vaan wanted Revenge in the beginning rememeber so for him to counsel aganist it later made a better impact.
    As for his random observations he didn't those Observations where on the characters events and real ideas on how to go on. I wish I could give a better account on this but I need to replay the game again to really give you examples.
    Also Tidus wasn't an observer at all while he wasn't the main Protagonist like Yuna he was very cruciel to the plot and often forced HIS views on the choices like Saving Yuna Seymour and several other places. As well as Sin had a personal stake with him and opened up for him and did several things for him like the Mihiad I belive it was called the operation to kill Sin using Machines. Sin came to show Tidus what Sin is and does. Sin showed up in Zarakened to see if Tidus had rejected the final Aeon. In short he is Like Ashe he creates and moves the plot. Vaan only helped push the plot while observing the movement this created. Vaan is just overshadowed and Underappericated because One people think he is a Stupid blonde Pretty boy and because of Ashe. Vaan has more depth and affect then people give him credit for.

  7. #7
    Onion Kid
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    I kind of said that wrong... I felt Tidus's role was as an observer not because that was all he did, but because his narration on events and characters was part of what made him such a great hero. Initially, he was presented as an outsider observing the Yuna's quest, but evolved to have a more personal stake in the journey.

    Vaan on the other hand... Had he been presented as a supporting character, I think I wouldn't have been as confused by him, but since the game makes him out to be the main character (represents the main party in cities, first character after Reks, etc.), it is expected that he would display more leadership or decisiveness. He doesn't seem to go through the hero's journey; his grief at Rek's death is overcome fairly quickly, so he doesn't have the emotional struggle throughout the game that would have made him a more dynamic character.

    hehe, on first glance he DOES look pretty, but I kind of forgot about that after I heard his voice.

  8. #8
    Onion Kid
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    Sorry, accidentally double posted.

  9. #9
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    What you should rememeber is the fact Reks has been dead for 2 years by that time people get over death pretty easily they have to espically in war time. As for the Struggle and grieve that we see that is just misplaced emotions by Vaan a common pratice of most people espically when a Lost loved one is concerned.

    I agree it seems like he should be the Leader but he is just the eyes and ears of the player since he is the only one you have start to finish so it makes since for him to represent the Party though it would have been even more cool to go around as Ashe or Fran.

  10. #10
    Onion Kid
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    Hmm, somehow I forgot he'd been dead that long. Sorry!

    It would have been cool to switch viewpoints outside of battle. I probably would have spent most of my time as Balthier or Fran if they'd done that. It'd have been kind of cool to see the NPC reaction to some of the characters, like Basch.

    Wish they'd put in that feature where you can interact with the other main characters in a city. I used to go crazy with that in FFX.

  11. #11
    ~FFXII ROCKS!~
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    I actually thought FFXII was the best in the FF series. I really liked FFVII & FFX but I thought this game beat them in everything. I like the battle system, the characters, the storyline and the amount of bosses and the scenery. I also liked how they had levels for the characters unlike FFX's Sphere grid. Thats annoyed me to death. I also like the license board.

  12. #12
    btw i just defeated the dragon boss before entering the Pharos. (I had to check a game walkthrough to get through some dungeon and pharos was like step 50/52, but I heard it takes a long time which leads me to my estimation of 90%.

    The thing is I like sharing the mindset of the characters. Zidane + Squall heck even Tidus are all characters you can relate too. (Cloud sorta I guess).

    Vaan started out great, but after meating up w/ Ashe he is just a bystander.
    What ever happened to him being able to see Ashe's Husband, and then all the sudden he dosn't? If this is answered later on, plz say so and don't answer, but otherwise I don't get it. It seemed like that was the connection betwen Vaan and Ashe, but that part of the story has dropped off the map.

    Also I have not dont a ton of hunts, (42 hrs in) so that is not the only reason the storyline seems weak, but really the storyline isnt. I get the storyline and I like the judges and crap. Just the main character interaction sucks.

    btw: Ashe's dead husband would of been a kick ass Main Character.

  13. #13
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    No it is explained because Vaan wanted his brother back with longing he saw a ghost he says later in the Village of the Giraff that he saw his brother but realized he was being an idiot and running away from his problems. Ashe was doing the same thing she was so wraped up in revenge she stopped living that is why she could see him none of the other characters had that need and want hence why they couldn't see him.
    Your location is roughly 80% to 83% done on plot by the time you finish Pharos you will be 90% when you go into the Sky fortress you will then hit 95% while the end naturally gets 100%.
    The connection will come back by the time you finish Pharos before you talk about character interactions finish the game then come back there are ALOT of things and twistes to come.
    As for the Characters yeah the interaction is thin in some areas but by the end it will change quite a bit. Also the Main point of the story isn't the Main characters it is the scenes behind the events we are just windows into those events. It is kinda like the old saying the winners write history? Well this is the History before it is written and we write the History so to speak.

    As for Ralister no I think he would have sucked big time. Why? One he doesn't think about what is best but rather he gets wrapped up in revenge at the end Basch an Experinced Military commander told him to retreat he refused and instead fought on in the memory of his father those are the guys that get you killed for no reason. Also he doesn't strike me as some one who could look past someones Background but that is just my impression of him. But really I just don't like the pretty boy period.

  14. #14
    ~FFXII ROCKS!~
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    Yes thats one thing that I hate SE for. Since FFX all the main boy characters (Tidus, Vaan) have been blonde, non muscly and like Revaninja said it's the pretty boy period. Why can't they bring someone like Cloud or Auron or Barret out. Now they struck fear in the enemys. Is it just me or does Vaan have anorexia or is that a six pack? Cause if it's anoerxia I can understand cause his starving and got no money and verything but if it's a six pack then that just really random. What do you guys think???

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Revaninja View Post
    No it is explained because Vaan wanted his brother back with longing he saw a ghost he says later in the Village of the Giraff that he saw his brother but realized he was being an idiot and running away from his problems. Ashe was doing the same thing she was so wraped up in revenge she stopped living that is why she could see him none of the other characters had that need and want hence why they couldn't see him.
    Your location is roughly 80% to 83% done on plot by the time you finish Pharos you will be 90% when you go into the Sky fortress you will then hit 95% while the end naturally gets 100%.
    The connection will come back by the time you finish Pharos before you talk about character interactions finish the game then come back there are ALOT of things and twistes to come.
    As for the Characters yeah the interaction is thin in some areas but by the end it will change quite a bit. Also the Main point of the story isn't the Main characters it is the scenes behind the events we are just windows into those events. It is kinda like the old saying the winners write history? Well this is the History before it is written and we write the History so to speak.

    As for Ralister no I think he would have sucked big time. Why? One he doesn't think about what is best but rather he gets wrapped up in revenge at the end Basch an Experinced Military commander told him to retreat he refused and instead fought on in the memory of his father those are the guys that get you killed for no reason. Also he doesn't strike me as some one who could look past someones Background but that is just my impression of him. But really I just don't like the pretty boy period.
    Thanks this is all good info. I said I wasn't done, but the thing is that I was posting why I can't find myself playing for long hours, and it was cuz of the characters. Good to know it picks up during Pharos tho!

    Also I heard Pharos is very long, plz tell me there are some save points ><

  16. #16
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    There are alot of them don't worry its just getting to them that is the problem. Your true worry should be Subterra which is a Hidden area of Pharos you get after you beat Pharos VERY nasty place that.

  17. #17
    ~FFXII ROCKS!~
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    Yer it is. I'm lvl 65 and I had 8 bull Abbondons gang up on my ARRRRRRRR! I just used a quickning chain to whip them out but still pretty freaky! But the Subterra give you some fantastic EXP 3400-4000 exp per kill with a embroided tippit is fantastic. My guys have leveled up so quickly!

  18. #18
    Onion Kid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revaninja View Post
    The story IS better then FFx-2 and a lot of them it is just different then most players are use to instead of it focusing on the Characters like past FFs have done it instead focouses on Poltics and war. Character interaction is great but it doesn't appear to be that way because of how dragged out it can become due to Hunts leveling Lp farming and the like it can literally put 12 hours between a Story line part. Also plain losing your way can do that as well.

    Penelo does bring something to the plot usually in the interactions between Larsa and the team is what I rememeber though it has been a little bit since I played the game. Vaan is the Main character because he is unintrested observer in this game his point of view is paramount in most cases Ashe is the Leading lady who most of the story moves around and her choices are drastic factors to the story but the Main character is still Vaan since the idea wasn't for the player to be in control of history but rather an observer.

    In short the game isn't like FFX where you got deluged in Story line nor is it like FFIX where the main focous was the Characters. It is a group trying to bring back a Fallen kingdom while bigger nastier things are trying to use them. It is all poltics which a lot of people don't get fully or don't see all the little details. Play the game a second time around and the plot will make ALOT more sense then on the first Also try to play a speed game to help since as I said the story movement can get dragged out due to all the sidequests.

    Also where are you in the game saying 90% means nothing since I have run into people who think Raithwalls tomb is the end of the game due to the time. Let me clue you in on something 60 hours is the max time I have seen for a Speed run so far and even that wasn't all that much of a speed run. Myself I have the game finished and 90% complete on ALL SIDEQUESTS with a total of 100 hours or so if I ever get to finishing the 100% I will most likely be at 120 or so in time and mine is almost Speed run since I firgued out tricks near the beginning. So tell us where you are Story wise.
    Wow okay i've been playing it for 87 hours it's my first time, I spent 20 hours on the stupid place i'm at now. Which is where you have to touch the glyphs in order to get from place to place and if you fail twice you have to fight a crapload of monsters. It's really dragging me down I can't figure it out and it's starting to bore me. Could you help me out?

  19. #19
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    Wrong place and I already answered ask those question in Q&A thread.

  20. #20
    Grand Shriner
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    Last edited by Ultimadream; 05-25-2013 at 04:49 AM.

  21. #21
    The Original B! jakeb's Avatar
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    From a battle perspective, I think this was one of the greatest FFs ever. Other than that, I felt underwhelmed once finishing the game. I beat it nearly three months ago, and haven't picked it up once. The story was good, but felt lacking in certain points. But any story is better than X-2.

  22. #22
    Gigai Sandal Hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by range of the long nines View Post
    The Characters suck. There is little to no interaction between them, and the storyline as a whole suffers because of it.

    Think about it, who are all the cool characters? The judges, the soldier who helps you (early on, don't remember his name, he joins as a guest and has a big 2h'er), Reddas.

    Some of them would be sweet to have in party (well I can see why no judges of course), but instead we are left with characters like Penelo who add nothing to the story. The story could be the exact same w/ just Ashe + Balthier + the rabbit chick (maybe). Vaan is the main character? Wrong, Ashe is clearly who the story develops around. I think Square Enix was really trying to pull off a no romance storyline but so far it has sucked. (I'm about 90% done w/ the game) .

    The fighting is better, the liscense + gambit system, all fairly well done, but the lack of storyline and lameness of characters keeps me from being addicted to this game.

    Unless the storyline dosn't really get underway w/ untill the last 10% of the game the storyline is about to be the worst of any FF I've played yet.

    Anybody else agree?

    or at least answer this, WTF is the point of Penelo in this game? Unless something major happens from 90% to completion, she is good for the first 20m when she kind of explains Vaans background through dialogue. That is it.

    Edit: Storyline might be better then X-2.
    I'm inclined to agree with you on just about all accounts. After spending so much time plugging away at this game, all of the things that I love about final fantasy games seem to have been discarded in a seemingly hasty fashion. While the gameplay was interesting and fun at first, the challenge was disapeared and character specialization become a moot issue. Why would I place my characters in such danger, when I could have 6 perfectly capable tankmages that I don't have to ever worry about?

    Also The story line was bad. The lack of character development is not something that can be overlooked just because the focus of the story was on the major conflicts between waring nations. The suikoden series never seems to lose sight of this. While there isn't necessary a main character in FF12, there's no excuse for having poorly develpoed characters. There was no since of cohesion and just cause for my party's semi-enthusiasm.

    Also the music can be equated something along the lines of background noise. I just don't remember it at all, which is a shame because it's beautifully wriiten, composed, and executed. But the songs are boring. Because of the abscence of battle music I was looking forward to some wonderful and emotional overworld tracks. I was sadly mistaken. I do feel that the voice acting was great however.

  23. #23
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    The plot is not bad by any stretch of the imanigation. It is very complicated so ALOT of people miss the little stuff that brings it all into focous one of the reasons why I say you have to play again to see all of them since most times you miss them because they aren't easily understood or in the Foreground so people often dismiss those little hints and meanings not quite getting them. Like Range he missed out on why Vaan stopped seeing Ralisters ghost and gave a Hint on what he truly is which you find out at the End of Pharos.

    The characters ARE well developed most people just don't see that. We are used to watching ALOT of character Development in FF like FFVIII Squall going from a Loner to a respected Leader for example, Daggers search for her own self worth for example in FFIX, and Tidus understanding of his own feelings in FFX. In short we are used to lots of screen time to Develop characters when that is not what is done here by any stretch. What is done is what is called a Piece character development usually seen in Complex books basically what happens is that every event the character is in a Piece of his or her development happens sometimes its something major like Vaan realizing he was running away other times it is simiply his ability to get along with Larsa even though he should hate the empire. In short Piece development can be thought of as buliding something sometimes a Major foundation gets placed others a few bricks but every single time something gets laid done. And because it is happening every single time without a Focous on it usually it gets missed hence why once again play the game through again you will see so much more character development then you thought was there in the first play.

  24. #24
    Gigai Sandal Hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revaninja View Post
    The plot is not bad by any stretch of the imanigation. It is very complicated so ALOT of people miss the little stuff that brings it all into focous one of the reasons why I say you have to play again to see all of them since most times you miss them because they aren't easily understood or in the Foreground so people often dismiss those little hints and meanings not quite getting them. Like Range he missed out on why Vaan stopped seeing Ralisters ghost and gave a Hint on what he truly is which you find out at the End of Pharos.
    The story wasn't that complicated, and what you might consider to be subtleties of text i consider poor script in this story. All of the oh moments and undercurrents of development were left as they were and were either partialy resolved of resolved in most obvious and uninteresting ways.As a result man any of the relationships between the characters were underdeveloped as well a the relationship between the charaters and the rest of the world. Now I do belive that the story has some amazing setup, and some of the situations are brimming with potential, but there was no followthrough like in other RPGS, not just the FF series. (FF8 had a few similar problems as well.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Revaninja View Post
    The characters ARE well developed most people just don't see that. We are used to watching ALOT of character Development in FF like FFVIII Squall going from a Loner to a respected Leader for example, Daggers search for her own self worth for example in FFIX, and Tidus understanding of his own feelings in FFX. In short we are used to lots of screen time to Develop characters when that is not what is done here by any stretch. What is done is what is called a Piece character development usually seen in Complex books basically what happens is that every event the character is in a Piece of his or her development happens sometimes its something major like Vaan realizing he was running away other times it is simiply his ability to get along with Larsa even though he should hate the empire. In short Piece development can be thought of as buliding something sometimes a Major foundation gets placed others a few bricks but every single time something gets laid done. And because it is happening every single time without a Focous on it usually it gets missed hence why once again play the game through again you will see so much more character development then you thought was there in the first play.
    No one's saying that the characters have to be similar to ther rpg archetypes for the chracters to be well developed. As for Vaan, if he's not the main character but more part of an ensemble cast, than he needs a purpose for existence. All characters in all stories must serve some function and have a reason for being included. And for the story to be good the characters purposes must be interesting and compelling. This is where the game fell short. While the characters had reason for continuing on their journey (except for Penelo, if her reasoning was to be close to Vaan or to protect him or to maintain their realtionship, they never told us which is just stupid.), but their reasoning was held together with shoestring adhesion. They almost got there with Balthier, however. But the moments that were supposed to make you say "OH my God" didn't really have the impact. It was more like "oh, that's cool".

  25. #25
    Godslayer The Heretic Knight Revaninja's Avatar
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    Wrong I think VERY wrong. First Vaan's reason to be there is to FIND a reason he is seeing what is out there and finding where he Belongs he states as much in Gariff village. Ashe to reclaim her kingdom there isn't any doubt there. Balither orignally for the treasure but later it was to close his past and stop running from it. Fran is there for Balither as his partner. Basch to fufill his duty to Ashe Vossler and himself as a Knight he has never stopped and will do all to continue to protect Dalmasca. Penelo is there for Vaan she says she is his partner so she goes where he goes. Each has a reason Penelo is Navie, Basch is Duty and Honor, Balither is experince, Fran is mystcism, Ashe willpower, and Vaan the eyes of the player. I have said in another thread that Vaan has always been meant to be an observer and quite sounding board. Ashe is the Leading lady but Vaan is the explorer. Since he doesn't have Balithers experince he finds out what we need to know as players he serves a VERY imporant part the truth seeker.

    As for your 'Opnion' on the story okay its obvious you think this is how the story goes but I can tell you the story is complicated and well written from the movements or Ondor to Vaynes every move. As for your not solved parts many of them Weren't meant to be Balither's father for example never gets solved. Basch's innocenes by judgement from Vaan is solved by the fact Basch is not a man to do this and several scenes point this out as well as the fact they see Gabranth's face helps. Go back look again the game Left a lot of unresolved parts on purpouse just like any game does it helps it be more realistic if a game solves all problems and has it all in a nice neat package then it feels Hollow and that is the truth. But the game's plot both yours and mine opnion is just that an opnion others will like it and others will hate it just like any game.

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