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Thread: "Marvel Cinematic Universe" Discussion Thread

  1. #126
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    Moral of the Howard/Cheadle conversion: don't get on RDJ's bad side.

    No suit for you.

  2. #127
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread RIP James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Yeah. Pity really. I'd have loved to see what Howard would have been like in a suit.
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  3. #128
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    I'm a Cheadle fan so I'm fine with the switch. He was great as the character Mouse in Devil in a Blue Dress. Stole the movie right from under Denzel, no easy task that.

  4. #129
    The Dancing Clown pottyaboutpotter1's Avatar
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    War Machine and Don Cheadle are one of the main things that audiences praised about Iron Man 2 and 3 from various reviews from critics and audiences.

    Well I'm still sticking by War Machine since he makes more sense to kill off in terms of the story, while Black Widow doesn't.

    Tony's creation goes rogue and kills his best friend. That's better juice for the story and Tony's character arc. It can even lead into Civil War: "This is what happens when Superhumans aren't controlled, people close to you die."

    Tony and Black Widow don't have much of an on screen relationship. Her death would really only effect Cap, Hulk and Hawkeye most in terms of character development. Tony and Widow barely talk in Avengers. Hell, they barely talk in Iron Man 2. If the death is to impact Tony's character and set Civil War in motion then Hulk and War Machine are the best options.

    Even then, it doesn't make sense to try and predict who Whedon will kill off. He always kills off who you least expect. The character who, as soon as they die, you go "Damn, I really liked that character. I miss them." You only realise you miss them when they die.

    Who expected Joyce, Tara, Anya and Spike to die in Buffy? Doyle, Cordelia, Fred and Wesley in Angel? Wash in Firefly/Serenity? Coulson in Avengers? If you predicted those you must be Whedon himself. The thing about his deaths is that no one saw them coming. Even if you guessed someone was going to die, it was always the character you least expected. So I'm betting War Machine, but I know for a fact it'll be someone we haven't thought of. Black Widow is safe. As is Iron Man and Captain America.
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  5. #130
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    When was War Machine's last appearance in the MCU? Two years ago. When was the Widow's last appearance in the MCU? One year ago in CA: TWS. Which movie IM3 or TWS is in heavy rotation on cable? TWS.

    Why no Black Widow film in Marvel's future plans? Why instead a Carol Danvers Captain Marvel film? Lucy showed Johansson can carry a picture to the finish line. Marvel would make drug cartel dollars with a Widow stand alone and Marvel has shown itself incredibly savvy at making movies that make money.

    Why does the final Avengers' trailer focus on Black Widow? Why her being chummy with Banner? Why is the trailer's almost final shot her fighting Ultron with Cap's shield. She has no armor, no super strength, no arrows to fire from a distance, but she has the courage to take on Ultron in hand to hand combat. Why center a multi-million dollar ad campaign on one character?

    Answer: Black Widow dies. You kill War Machine, a guy protected by a suit of armor, you're just killing a guy in a team composed mostly of guys. Most enhanced, Hawkeye excluded, in some way. Ultron kills her it effects Cap and the Hulk but mostly the audience. (And Whedon did it before by killing Coulson, who faced off with a demigod and lost.)

    I've paraphrased Poe before and I do it again: more lines of poetry and prose have been written about the death of a beautiful woman than any other topic.

    And May 1st will render this discussion moot.

  6. #131
    Official Shrine Grinch TheSkeletonMan939's Avatar
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    Oh man.

    I wasn't really taking your prediction that seriously before, but you make some damn good points.

    Now I'm going to be tense throughout the whole movie waiting to see if you're right or not.

    Also: [Hidden link. Register to see links.].

    I loved what I saw in The Winter Soldier, and I'm excited to see some Avengers movies in that style.

  7. #132
    The Dancing Clown pottyaboutpotter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killgrave View Post

    Why does the final Avengers' trailer focus on Black Widow? Why her being chummy with Banner? Why is the trailer's almost final shot her fighting Ultron with Cap's shield. She has no armor, no super strength, no arrows to fire from a distance, but she has the courage to take on Ultron in hand to hand combat. Why center a multi-million dollar ad campaign on one character?
    Because she's an immensly popular character in the MCU. Just like how the Avengers marketing focused on Iron Man. They're just focusing on the characters audiences respond to. It doesn't mean anything. It's just marketing. What's popular = What's focused on in the marketing.

  8. #133
    RETIRED VIKING max_stein's Avatar
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    I would hate to see Black Widow die, she has good interaction with the other Avenger hero's and looks great. War Machine is also popular but He and Hawkeye seem more expendable. But if Marvel wants to hit the audience hard her death would do it.
    That which does not kill you makes you stronger.

  9. #134
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1 View Post
    Because she's an immensly popular character in the MCU. Just like how the Avengers marketing focused on Iron Man. They're just focusing on the characters audiences respond to. It doesn't mean anything. It's just marketing. What's popular = What's focused on in the marketing.
    No, good marketing has a purpose, a reason, a goal it is trying to achieve. If Marvel wanted popular Cap or Iron Man would have been the focus of the trailer because they are probably Marvel's favorite sons. Again, the final third of the trailer is Widow-centric. Not Cap, Thor, IM or Hulk. Why? Because that's the character Marvel wants you to remember. Why? It's not because there's a Widow film in the future, because there's not. They are elevating her character, a supporting character for a reason. She's popular, but why pay that much attention to a character that has no future in the MCU?

    You rise someone up so that she can fall, so that she can have the hero's death. You have the least powerful Avenger go toe-to-toe with the Avengers' most powerful threat to date. No armor, no super strength, just Cap's shield. My guess, that's where Ultron breaks Cap's shield.

    Then Ultron breaks Black Widow.

  10. #135
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread RIP James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1 View Post
    Her death would really only effect Cap, Hulk and Hawkeye most in terms of character development. If the death is to impact Tony's character and set Civil War in motion then Hulk and War Machine are the best options.
    Using your own logic, Black Widow makes perfect sense. Iron Man isn't the only main character in Civil War. Cap's there too. And if this death is going to help set Civil War up, Black Widow's death would work for Cap in exactly the same way that you're saying War Machine's death would affect Tony.

    And Killgrave is right - that shot of her going head on with Ultron himself is a pretty good indication of an epic (and ultimately tragic) showdown.

    But let's just wait and see, shall we?

  11. #136
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    Amen to that. Who knows, I could be stuffed topful of wild blueberry muffins on this one. It might be War Machine who bites the dust or metal shavings in his case. I think that would be the equivalent of a Star Trek Red Shirt Death and it would tell me Marvel wants to play it safe. Much as I like Black Widow, in order to make the Civil War storyline one with weight and heft, it demands a death of consequence.

    Hers.

    And it sets the stage for the death of Captain America at the hands or guns of Crossbones in Civil War.

  12. #137
    How 'bout a magic trick? Jasonjhn8's Avatar
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    I agree that Black Widow will die. Once civil war was announced, i was wondering what would drive Cap and Tony against each other. Widow's death would be a big part of that.

    I am also thinking that perhaps (perhaps) Tony will die in Civil War. I know it sounds crazy, but I think that in the end Tony will make up for his mistakes (Ultron etc...) and sacrifice himself to save the others from something or other. From what I understand, in the comics Cap dies in Civil War. I think maybe they'll do twist and surprise everyone. Plus they can get rid of RDJ's huge money contract. What do you all think? Am I crazy? I could be completely wrong, but it's just something I've been thinking about.

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  13. #138
    The Dancing Clown pottyaboutpotter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killgrave View Post
    No, good marketing has a purpose, a reason, a goal it is trying to achieve. If Marvel wanted popular Cap or Iron Man would have been the focus of the trailer because they are probably Marvel's favorite sons. Again, the final third of the trailer is Widow-centric. Not Cap, Thor, IM or Hulk. Why? Because that's the character Marvel wants you to remember. Why? It's not because there's a Widow film in the future, because there's not. They are elevating her character, a supporting character for a reason. She's popular, but why pay that much attention to a character that has no future in the MCU?

    You rise someone up so that she can fall, so that she can have the hero's death. You have the least powerful Avenger go toe-to-toe with the Avengers' most powerful threat to date. No armor, no super strength, just Cap's shield. My guess, that's where Ultron breaks Cap's shield.

    Then Ultron breaks Black Widow.
    Or maybe it's because Widow was one of the most popular parts of TA and TWS so they're making her a big part of the marketing this time around. The "She's in the marketing a lot so must die" doesn't make sense. She's in the marketing a lot as she's a popular character. More popular now then she was for Avengers 1. So she's a focus of the marketing. Just like how Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch will be a big part of the IW marketing if they're very popular after this. Movie marketing is all about getting you into the theatre. So it shows you what you want to see. Avengers 1 marketing: Iron Man, Captain America and Thor in the same movie! Avengers 2 Marketing: All of the Avengers are back and facing a new villain! So the marketing is focusing on the most popular Avengers which are Iron Man, Hulk, Cap and Black Widow. Notice how Thor isn't focused on much in the marketing? Because he's not as popular as the others. So Disney is showing us the characters they think we want to see, not the characters thaat are important. Also Disney is doing the marketing and they're showing us what they think will make us go see it. So Black Widow is hugely popular = More people will go see it if we show Black Widow is in it a lot. Remember how Disney focused on Olaf and the comedy in the Frozen trailers as they thought that was the most popular part of it? Then after release trailers shifted to focus on Elsa? Because the trailers focus on Black Widow it doesn't mean she's going to die. It's just because Disney are anticipating her being one of the most popular characters in the film. Those Black Widow action figures won't sell themselves.

    ---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by James P.Sullivan View Post
    that shot of her going head on with Ultron himself is a pretty good indication of an epic (and ultimately tragic) showdown.
    Well... not necessarily. Who's to say Thor doesn't swoop in seconds later to help out? Can't judge from a trailer. Remember when people said Tony would be in trouble when we saw the "We have a Hulk" clips because Tony was unarmoured and facing off with Loki? He wasn't. He got a new suit and blasted Loki minutes later. Just because we see a shot of Black Widow fighting Ultron, it doesn't mean she'll lose. She could hold him off for a few minutes then someone else comes to help out. Or Ultron could leave, deciding Iron Man/Thor/Hulk are a bigger threat. I think that scene ends with Hulk charging in and saving her.

  14. #139
    Official Shrine Grinch TheSkeletonMan939's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasonjhn8 View Post
    I am also thinking that perhaps (perhaps) Tony will die in Civil War.
    Naaahhhh. I'm thinking they'll save all the BIG deaths (i.e. characters with their own films) for Infinity War.

    Then they'll transition from the Phase 1 Avengers to a new team.

  15. #140
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    The numbers tell the story: percentage of audience were women -

    Avengers 40%
    Iron Man 3 42%
    Guardians of the Galaxy 44%
    Frozen 57%
    Maleficent 60%
    Hunger Games: Catching Fire 59%

    What do those last three films have in common: female leads. Who are the leads in most young adult films, Hunger Games, Twilight, Divergent, The Fault in Our Stars: women. Two of the biggest money making films, Gravity & The Heat, featured women. Sandra Bullock and Melissa McCarthy put asses in seats.

    If ever there was a shut-up-and-take-my-money scenario its that of a female driven superhero movie. And Black Widow should be the perfect candidate for that movie. Thanks to the Marvel films her onscreen presence is already front loaded into the public's awareness, no starting from ground zero. (I think it was James Cameron who said the best trailer for Terminator 2 was the first Terminator.)

    And with a Captain Marvel movie in the pipeline, Marvel is not letting all that money just sit in people's wallets. They are going after it. Marvel knows to plan for the future you must make the future. Look at how it has changed the movie world since the first Iron Man. Superheroes have undergone a sea change, they are no longer films just for kids or young adults, they can be quite serious. Take the superhero elements out of CA: TWS and it still would have worked as a political thriller.

    Yet instead of going with a Widow film Marvel chose Captain Marvel to be its first female superhero movie. This is a character the non comic book reading community knows zero about. Just like GoTG they are starting at square one in audience recognition. Why the Captain instead of the Widow?

    Because Black Widow dies. Her death will be felt more and have greater consequences than the death of War Machine. You just get another guy to fill the suit. You don't even see his face most of the time. War Machine is anonymous, expressionless. The suit makes the man, help makes him a hero.

    But the Widow, its all her. She made and re-made herself from a spy with red in her ledger into a hero. A human hero who will die at the hands of an inhuman villain.

  16. #141
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread RIP James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Dude, your case gets stronger by the day. I'll be surprised now if she doesn't die.

  17. #142
    The Dancing Clown pottyaboutpotter1's Avatar
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    Widow isn't going to die IMO. Maybe Marvel has their own reasons for not making a Black Widow movie. Maybe it just doesn't fit in with their current plans. Maybe they're struggling to find the right story? The right script? Just because there isn't a Black Widow movie yet doesn't mean anything at all. A lot goes into movie production. Marvel aren't like other studios. Most studios go "You will write X movie by Y date." Marvel is more "We have an idea for a movie we're interested in doing, but we're trying to find the right team for it." Maybe the reason Black Widow hasn't been made yet is because Marvel isn't confident they can find the right scriptwriters and director in time for Phase 3 so would rather wait for Phase 4 for a Black Widow movie. Captain Marvel got a movie in Phase 3 because MArvel is confident they can deliver the best movie they can with that character then.

  18. #143
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread RIP James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Maybe Hulk will die?

  19. #144
    RETIRED VIKING max_stein's Avatar
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    Black Window is about the only well known strong female roll so far, for balance and the audience I think she will survive. But what do I know? I more of a Star Trek fan than a super hero fan. Avengers was the movie that got me interested again in comic book super heroes.

  20. #145
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James P.Sullivan View Post
    Maybe Hulk will die?
    I don't think the Hulk can die. Banner said he put a gun in his mouth, pulled the trigger and the "other guy" spat out the bullet.

    As for the Widow, I don't want her to die. She is one of my favorites. (Hell, the only action figures I own are of the Black Widow. Well, her and the Hulkbuster. Call it a weakness.) Smart, resourceful, tough, beautiful: what's not to like? I'd rather that my nieces look to her as a role model than someone like Kim-my-butt-broke-the-Internet-what's-her-face. (And for the record they do look up to the Widow. Although it changes weekly from Katniss to Elsa to Natasha.)

    But from a storytelling perspective her death is a necessity. Especially if Marvel wants to elevate the superhero genre. Killing a lesser known character is a cheat and the audience will see through that sleight of hand. People have become much more sophisticated in their expectations. They might not be always able to put into words or discern what exactly is unsatisfactory about the story but they'll know the studio is playing it safe instead of swinging for the fences.

    But in about three weeks we'll know for sure. Earlier if you live overseas. And if I'm wrong you can tell "I told you so." And if I'm wrong a part of me will be happy that Nat didn't die, but a greater part will be disappointed because Marvel choked.

  21. #146
    Official Shrine Grinch TheSkeletonMan939's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James P.Sullivan View Post
    Maybe Hulk will die?
    You can't kill the Hulk.

    In one Avengers cartoon, [Hidden link. Register to see links.]. If that doesn't kill him then nothing can.

    My theory at some point he'll be jettisoned off into space, like in Planet Hulk. Where would this storyline go? [Hidden link. Register to see links.]

  22. #147
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    I'm guessing the Avengers were fighting Gravitron at the time. No joke. Name of Marvel villain. And the Hulk is essentially a gamma bomb on two legs and energy cannot be created or destroyed, its form merely shifted.

    I think there was a Marvel one shot where Hulk was the last man on Earth after a global nuclear war. The Hulk fed off the radiation that killed everyone which in turn made him immortal.

    I wonder if the Hulk ages as Banner does or is he, the Hulk, immortal? That would be a sight, an eighty year old Banner hulking out.

  23. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Killgrave View Post
    I wonder if the Hulk ages as Banner does or is he, the Hulk, immortal? That would be a sight, an eighty year old Banner hulking out.
    There was a cartoon that depicted an aged Banner/Hulk.
    I think it's the teenty tot avengers.

    I saw a trailer for the series.
    Banner had grey hair, so did Hulk.

    ---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------

    Robert Bruce Banner (Earth-807128)
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    Weaknesses

    As he ages considerably, Banner's healing factor has weakened progressively, noticing how he ate Logan, and when Logan sliced open his stomach, Banner didn't heal from the wounds, and instead died. Also, when he was younger, he was exposed to a million gamma bombs, which damaged his mind enough for him to forcibly turn evil.
    There's probably lots more out there.
    Found that image googling for "banner hulk old age".
    Code:
    https://www.google.ca/search?newwindow=1&safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=856&q=banner+hulk+old+age&oq=banner+hulk+old+age&gs_l=img.3...2532.5922.0.6161.19.13.0.6.1.0.59.573.12.12.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.64.img..7.12.530.AXo8OUMFRPA

  24. #149
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    Proving that growing old is not for sissies.

  25. #150
    Hulk with grey hair, found the kiddie avengers movie I was trying to remember.

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    here's trailer in "HD" (MOVIECLIPS channel is run by third-world country so they never have any actual HD videos)
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    I saw the trailer attached the Hulk VS. bluray.
    2 movies of Hulk fighting someone.
    Movie 1) Hulk VS. The Wolverine
    Movie 2) Hulk VS. Thor
    or interchange, whatever, I don't care. They were both on the disc.
    i don't think there's any chronology/continuity between the two.

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