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Thread: "Marvel Cinematic Universe" Discussion Thread

  1. #226
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    Good guys are booooring.
    How right you are: First Responders, Emergency Medical Techs, Police, Firemen, Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, Coast Guard, Nurses, Doctors Without Borders . . .

    - the true 1%, the responsible people who run toward trouble, instead of the 99%, the irresponsible ones, who run away from trouble while taking selfies and later posting snarky comments in safety . . .

    - the 1% who shoulder and accept the weight of their actions while the 99% search for scapegoats and avoid responsibility . . .

    - the winter soldiers who unlike "the summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country" - Thomas Paine - do the right thing, not, to paraphrase a certain President, because it is easy but because it is hard . . .

    You are right. Good guys are so booooring because they are responsible because you can count on them and reliability is such a booooring quality.

    But when the world dials 9-1-1 it's the good guys who pick up and answer the call, not the bad guys.

  2. #227
    Biomecha Helix's Avatar
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    Oh dear god, I wasn't making some moral (or amoral?) statement or anything. It's just that in any fictional setting, usually the good guys are boring. That's not to say that good guys are not appreciated or needed in real life.

    Traditional 'heroes' a.k.a. the good guys, have been repetitive and predictive in that they always choose the 'right' thing to do, always make choices that are obvious and are very much the law-abiding citizens and moral examples we should all look up to type. 'Villains' a.k.a. the bad guys, are far more interesting in that they cannot be relied upon to be consistent or rational. Villains are traditionally more fleshed out than heroes and their agendas and their logic is far more complex than the heroes' usually.
    Now, sometimes that's not the case. Good literature usually doesn't have clear good guys or bad guys, it has people. People with motives, ulterior or otherwise. People with history and rationale to dictate their actions. Not all they do is bad, neither is it all good. Everyone has an agenda they live for.

    In this case, specifically dealing with the Cap vs Iron Man, again there are no clear signs to point out who we should obviously side with. Both have loyal fans with their own reasons for liking their guy.
    I won't speak for anyone else, but Stark has my vote (lol no helix you idiot this isn't an election or anything). He's stylish. The definition of cool. Easily the funniest (and fun-nest) of the bunch. Maybe a little too arrogant but is he not the guy who saved the Avengers by flying into that wormhole, or the one to save his own life (or body) multiple times without help from S.H.I.E.L.D. etc., or the only one of the four to not be simply handed a gift but using his intellect to use his inventions to make him super. We can maybe let some of that attitude slide. Despite his apparent moral ambiguities, he does have principles he adheres to. Maybe some of that older, less mature Stark may seep through once in awhile but that's okay. He never diverges too much. He has lived a much detached life, abandoning responsibility without a care in the world. Now, he's got people he cares for. Friends, comrades, Pepper. And for them, and the rest of humanity (that he doesn't hate either), he will suit up and he will do what needs to be done.

  3. #228
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Dear RDJ,

    I publicly apologise on behalf of all Brits for that insolent excuse for an interviewer on Channel 4 [Hidden link. Register to see links.] His behaviour was utterly unacceptable and inappropriate, and I am in full support of your subsequent decision to walk out. Well done for standing up to him and not bowing to the pressure of the cameras.

    You said near the beginning of the interview that you're not Iron Man. I respectfully disagree - you are Iron Man, and yesterday you proved it once and for all.

    On behalf of British television,
    Your biggest fan
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  4. #229
    Official Shrine Grinch TheSkeletonMan939's Avatar
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    That's the same ass [Hidden link. Register to see links.] awhile ago. Look at that dumb tie he's wearing too in the RDJ interview.

    Quote Originally Posted by James P.Sullivan View Post
    You said near the beginning of the interview that you're not Iron Man. I respectfully disagree - you are Iron Man, and yesterday you proved it once and for all.
    He's not Iron Man, but he sure as hell is Tony Stark.

    The reason RDJ is so good at the role is because that's the way he is in real life: witty, sarcastic, slightly cynical, etc.

  5. #230
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939 View Post
    That's the same ass [Hidden link. Register to see links.] awhile ago. Look at that dumb tie he's wearing too in the RDJ interview.



    He's not Iron Man, but he sure as hell is Tony Stark.

    The reason RDJ is so good at the role is because that's the way he is in real life: witty, sarcastic, slightly cynical, etc.
    Tony Stark is Iron Man. The suit and him are one. Surely you know that by now?!

    I totally agree - his personality is Tony Stark 100%. And he knew that. That's why he pushed so hard to get the part originally.

  6. #231
    Official Shrine Grinch TheSkeletonMan939's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James P.Sullivan View Post
    Tony Stark is Iron Man. The suit and him are one. Surely you know that by now?!
    I did until Iron Man 3, when he... wait, have you seen it yet?

  7. #232
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939 View Post
    I did until Iron Man 3, when he... wait, have you seen it yet?
    Ah. Good point. No, not yet. Thanks!

    ---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------

    Although I'm planning on watching the first Captain America next Sunday evening with a couple of friends. I'm getting there, I'm getting there.

  8. #233
    Official Shrine Grinch TheSkeletonMan939's Avatar
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    I saw Age of Ultron yesterday. Not bad, but not great, especially when compared to Winter Soldier and Guardians.

    I don't think I saw any of these shots in the film:

    Spoiler!

  9. #234
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939 View Post
    I saw Age of Ultron yesterday. Not bad, but not great, especially when compared to Winter Soldier and Guardians.

    I don't think I saw any of these shots in the film:

    Spoiler!
    Whoa, seriously?! That's like the entire trailer!

    So in your MCU ranking, where does it come? 4th?

  10. #235
    Official Shrine Grinch TheSkeletonMan939's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James P.Sullivan View Post
    Whoa, seriously?! That's like the entire trailer!
    The original cut of AoU was 3 hours+. When your movie is that long before editing begins, there's bound to be deleted material in the trailers. I hope there's an extended edition sometime...

    My ranking?

    11) Iron Man 3
    10) The Incredible Hulk
    9) Thor
    8) Age of Ultron
    7) The Avengers
    6) The Dark World
    5) Iron Man 2
    4) The First Avenger
    3) Guardians of the Galaxy
    2) Iron Man
    1) The Winter Soldier

  11. #236
    How 'bout a magic trick? Jasonjhn8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939 View Post
    I saw Age of Ultron yesterday. Not bad, but not great, especially when compared to Winter Soldier and Guardians.

    I don't think I saw any of these shots in the film:

    Spoiler!
    I also saw AOU yesterday, and I agree that is was okay but not great. I won't go into details of what I liked (or didn't) yet since I image a lot of people haven't seen it yet. As far as the shots from the trailer, I think the shot of Thor in the pool was in the film wasn't it? The others ones I didn't see either.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939 View Post
    The original cut of AoU was 3 hours+. When your movie is that long before editing begins, there's bound to be deleted material in the trailers. I hope there's an extended edition sometime...
    I image that there will be deleted scenes under the special features on the Blu-Ray if no the DVD also. I doubt there will be an actual extended cut though...[/QUOTE]

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  12. #237
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    The film was entertaining but it's a step backward for Marvel. Instead of meaningful change, Whedon just rearranged the deck chairs.

  13. #238
    Official Shrine Grinch TheSkeletonMan939's Avatar
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    woah

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  14. #239
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939 View Post
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  15. #240
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    Hopefully he gets more screen time than Kretschmann who played Baron Strucker for all of three minutes.

  16. #241
    Philippians 4:13, and Psalms 139:23-24 Prince Jay's Avatar
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    i don't know if the list is posted on this thread, but it's worth posing anyways:

    Phase 1:
    Iron Man
    The Incredible Hulk
    Iron Man 2
    Thor
    Captain America
    The Avengers

    Phase 2:
    Iron Man 3
    Thor: The Dark World
    Captain America: The Winter Soldier
    Guardians of The Galaxy
    The Avengers: Age of Ultron
    Ant Man - July 17, 2015

    Phase 3:
    Captain America: Civil War - May 6, 2016
    Doctor Strange - November 4, 2016
    Guardians of the Galaxy 2 - May 5,2017
    Thor: Ragnarok - July 28, 2017
    Black Panther - November 3, 2017
    The Avengers: Infinity War: Part 1 - May 4th 2018
    Captain Marvel - July 6, 2018
    Inhumans - November 2, 2018
    Avengers: Infinity War: Part 2 - May 2019
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  17. #242
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    Joss Whedon closed his Twitter account apparently because of a flood of negative comments about Avengers: AoU including death threats. The focus of the outrage, other than the usual knee-jerk, involuntary muscle spasm, exposed raw nerve state than so many social media users wallow in, is the treatment of Black Widow. Natasha's forced sterilization by her handlers and her declaration that she's a "monster" seem to be the main drivers of discontent.

    Jeremy Renner's comments that Black Widow is a "slut" haven't helped.

    So, does that make James Bond a slut?

  18. #243
    Intergalactic coffee-addicted Counselor sorei's Avatar
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    @Killgrave:
    of course good guys in RL are not boring but needed and much appreciated.

    In movies or novels, people tend to appreciate the good guy who has the potential to be something else than good but STILL is good because he decides so.
    To be good just because you are good and do not have the ability for more, in novels and movies: can be boring indeed.

    Actually, for me personally, I prefer people with the ability of abysses, too
    less one-dimensional. Even if more difficult.

    That does make Tony Stark interesting.
    And that does make black widow interesting, as she supports the "uncontrolable" Hulk-part too and sometimes - just sometimes - finds Banner "boring" (but sweet)

    anyway, I like Marvel Universe (as far as I know it), although I am no savvy there.

    And of course James Bond is a slut.
    We all would be, at times, if we could, wouldn't we.
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  19. #244
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    But there is the old and persistent devil of the double standard: if a guy sleeps around, society calls him a player. If a woman engages in the same behavior, society calls her a slut. If a guy plays hardball in business, he's a tough negotiator. If a woman does the same, she's cold, an ice princess, a man hater.

    I could go on but you get my point. When women demonstrate the traits society admires and promotes in men, society, in general, criticizes women.

    Or as one female Captain I worked for said: "When a guy gives an order, he's being firm, decisive, a leader. When I give an order, I'm a castrating bitch."
    Last edited by Killgrave; 05-05-2015 at 09:08 PM.

  20. #245
    Intergalactic coffee-addicted Counselor sorei's Avatar
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    @Killgrave: that still is very true of course! No argument here...

    it will still be true when I die, as I know, stuff like that takes several generations to change.

  21. #246
    The Dancing Clown pottyaboutpotter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayasaurus View Post
    Phase 3:
    Captain America: Civil War - May 6, 2016
    Doctor Strange - November 4, 2016
    Guardians of the Galaxy 2 - May 5,2017
    Thor: Ragnarok - July 28, 2017
    Black Panther - November 3, 2017
    The Avengers: Infinity War: Part 1 - May 4th 2018
    Captain Marvel - July 6, 2018
    Inhumans - November 2, 2018
    Avengers: Infinity War: Part 2 - May 2019
    These are the old release dates. The Sony/Marvel Spider-Man reboot has taken Thor's release date, Thor has taken Black Panther's, Black Panther has taken Captain Marvel and Captain Marvel has taken Inhumans. The revised list is:

    Captain America: Civil War - May 6, 2016

    Doctor Strange - November 4, 2016

    Guardians of the Galaxy 2 - May 5, 2017

    Spider-Man - July 28, 2017

    Thor: Ragnarok - November 3, 2017

    Avengers: Infinity War Part 1 - May 4, 2018

    Black Panther - July 6, 2018

    Captain Marvel - November 2, 2018

    Avengers: Infinity War Part 2 - May 3, 2019

    Inhumans - July 12, 2019
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  22. #247
    Philippians 4:13, and Psalms 139:23-24 Prince Jay's Avatar
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    Thanks for the revision

  23. #248
    Biomecha Helix's Avatar
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    Saw Avengers: Age of Ultron. Here's my take. Will try to keep this spoiler-free but those that've seen it, will get it.

    This may take awhile.





    Two words, not impressed. Reminded me more of the flaws in the original Avengers. Felt like it was too cramped, so many things were put in there that weren't needed. I happened to be late so I kinda missed the first ten minutes or so, but caught on almost immediately but still, some stuff like the farm and that whole dude from Wakanda thing were too much. A lot of stuff from the trailers wasn't there either which makes me think the movie was much longer and was shortened (maybe that version spaces things out better).
    Ultron did not turn out to be the great villain we were promised. He was no better than the equally forgettable villain, Malekith from Thor:The Dark World. Ultron in the end didn't have a convincing justification for why he suddenly(as usual with these kinds) wanted to kill everyone. Some are okay but here we have way too many homages to the original one that sort of gets boring after a while. A lot of deus ex machina too. Some good cameos that sort of helped convince us that the Marvel universe is not just a sandbox for which ever hero/es are in the movie. The whole Hulkbuster sequence was cool and fun action with lots of things blowing up, but again pointless and fluff.
    Joss Whedon was undoubtedly a little more than 'exhausted' for this one and no one can blame him. He's been firing on all cylinders constantly since 2010. Add that to the fact that he happens to be a little workaholic (for god's sakes, he made an entire other movie whilst shooting the Avengers). That'd take a toll on just about anyone.




    The cinematography and action choreography was stunning this time around much better than the 2012 outing. There's a great continuous action shot (which seems to be all the rage these days) which serves as this movie's version of the iconic revolving money shot from the last one. Generally, the camera work seems to be much better and I for one am glad that Ben Davis decided to this following Guardians of the Galaxy, which also happened to be a job well done.






    Let's talk about the cast, first the new additions.

    I expected someone of James Spader's calibre to do much better than the performance on show here, but maybe the script let him down. He's scary serious one second and the next he's cracking a one-liner that just deflates the pressure entirely. His CGI body is cool, but I can;t get over how his seemingly metal mouth moves in a very un-metal like fashion. Like it's muscle. The voice could have been darkened a little too (like the trailer). The mo-cap work, if you're familiar with his style, is too much like him in any other role. That is, too human. Ultron also happens to have a ridiculous physique. Those shoulders and that ass, period.

    Paul Bettany who used to voice J.A.R.V.I.S., is now the Vision, who is only slightly more interesting than Hawk-Eye (I'm going to really miss J.A.R.V.I.S. and hope F.R.I.D.A.Y. dies a horrible death). Bettany is a good actor and it shows when he's playing a pink and green skinned, philosophical entity (can't call him 'dude', that'd be racist) with a golden cape.

    Claudia Kim is a doctor that appears out of nowhere who is liked by all immediately (reminded me of how Maya Hansen should've been portrayed) but again, nobody is really invested in her survival. Or finding out about her personality. Whedon could've picked any scientist type dude/dudette from the last movies and given them the same role, personally I'd go with the guy (who is apparently William Ginter Riva) who got screamed at in the first Iron Man about how Tony Stark was able to build it in a cave! With a box of scraps!. Any member of the scientist team of Jane forgot-her-last-name from Thor. Or promote someone from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Or hey, Sam Rockwell's Justin Hammer could become a good guy huh? Huh? No? mmkay.




    The acting work from Jeremy Renner is been so bad in his past appearances in Marvel films that I was hoping he'd be dead by the end of this one. But, he's gotten a little better. He did Kill The Messenger recently, which was along with The Hurt Locker his finest work. And the improvement shows. Still hate Hawk-Eye though.
    Linda Cardellini has always been a good actress and in the role she has here, she's works well with the material she's given. Fun tidbit, she was Velma from Scooby-Doo once upon a time.

    Robert Downey Jr. is Robert Downey Jr., 'nuff said.

    Hemsworth has improved a lot and I'm liking Whedon's treatment of Thor over his stand-alone movies. He has a sense of humor when he's around these guys which is just the right amount. Chris is not perfect but the he does what the character and scene demands well with just enough vigor that people know he's not a simple mortal like the rest of the team. His physique (easily the only one who looks like a superhero) does the rest.

    The other Chris, Evans was impressive in The Winter Soldier but seems to take a step back here, back to The Avengers' Evans.

    ScarJo has always been phenomenal, and here she's even better. But I feel like her character keeps changing a lot. She is much different than the Romanoff from Iron Man 2, or even The Winter Soldier.

    Cobie Smulders tries and fails to make Maria Hill relevant. Once again. Which, again, is a shame.
    Don Cheadle's War Machine is prolly for the first time, likable.

    All Sam Jackson has ever had to do was to show up and say stuff, he's cool.

    But it's Mark Ruffalo who continues to impress with his tortured portrayal of Bruce Banner. Easily, one of the big highlights of the film. Planet Hulk needs to happen. And quickly.




    Finally, the new duo. The twins. Even though he tries, Aaron Taylor-Johnson can't really match the rather brilliant portrayal of the same character by his Kick-Ass co-star Evan Peters in Bryan Singer's X-MEN: Days of Future Past. Aaron is more serious and more 'older brotherly' rather than an interesting character in himself. That'll be hard to do for any character with just a handful of lines. Some of the CGI work with his super-speed reminds of the way Singer did it but nothing comes close to that amazing scene in DoFP. On the other hand Wanda Maximoff aka the Scarlet Witch is much more nuanced and Elizabeth Olsen gives enough depth to make her a worthy addition to the squad of superheroes. Her powers are silly though. She can get into people's minds and project whatever she wants, great. She can also do magic-y spell like things with reddish sparks that shoot out of her fingers and either protect her or let her attack her foes. I don't know, maybe the way the CGI representation was made or the power itself was wrong but this was not Marvel-y (not the comics Marvel, they are nuts, the movie Marvel) more Harry Potter. It'll be interesting how she develops in the future so her powers can be explored further and the whole shooting bolts thing can be improved.




    Now, the music. I honestly think it was not good, at least not as good as the first one. It was a hack job really. I've had some time with the score before watching the movie and thought Tyler's cues sucked while Elfman's were half-decent. But Whedon ended up using Silvestri's Helicarrier and A Promise themes from the first one too which was a bit jarring as they didn't really fit with the rest of the movie's soundscape. He should've been credited as well. Disappointed at the lack of 'I've Got No Strings' too.




    Just like Iron Man 3 (which had quite an impact on this one considering Whedon's enforcing the whole put-a-joke-everywhere policy seriously), the trailer was much much better than the film. I heard that there wasn't any after credits scenes directly from Whedon, well, there was, but it was mid-credits and also, the most boring of its kind. Also, when you set a great trend, keep to it.
    In the end, the Avengers never felt truly threatened, or in any real danger (hell, one of them takes them, wanted by super-smart intelligence and all, back to his secret pad for a nice little R&R and still everything's okay) from Ultron who is a super big deal apparently, considering he's got some really interesting origins. And in case it isn't obvious, the editors on this film should've been fired and never be allowed to touch another Marvel film again.





    TL;DR - It is certainly bigger and badder but not necessarily better.

    Whedon has been a little forthcoming about his struggles with the execs at Marvel about tie-ins to future plotlines for the other movies. It seems he was right. Despite everything, I will see it again and give it another chance but only because there were two four-year olds beside me during the entire time wrecking havoc with the recliners, crunching used up chocolate wrappers, and generally commenting on every-goddam-event-that-happened.






    Screw it, I'm spoiling it. Venting now.

    Spoiler!




    Okay, it's safe to come out now. Rant over.
    Last edited by Helix; 05-09-2015 at 09:11 PM.

  24. #249
    President of the Official Custom Covers Thread James P.Sullivan's Avatar
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    Great review - thanks for keeping it spoiler free.

  25. #250
    Grand Shriner Killgrave's Avatar
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    A well thought review Helix. You presented your points of contention and backed them examples. That's how you write a review. (A review is not "the movie was awesome/sucked" and leave it at that.)

    If you don't mind I'd like to add a thought or three.

    AoU is a step backward for Marvel from CA:TWS. That movie truly impressed me with its level of maturity (for a comic book movie). One of the frequent criticisms leveled at the character of Cap is he is a boring "do-gooder," always does the right thing and never waits for applause, say like, Tony Stark. (Stark is a hero, no doubt, but at the end of the day it is all about the Tony.) Those critics seem to forget Rogers was born almost a century ago and had his character forged by living through the Great Depression. That's one reason the people who came through that crucible and then that of WWII earned the title of the "Greatest Generation."

    Think today's population could do what that generation did? People now panic when they lose their Internet for half an hour.

    Wisely, CA:TWS surrounded Cap with people who are morally and ethically slippery: Widow, Fury, Pierce. Add to that the goals of Project Insight, of verdict first, trial later on a large scale and suddenly Cap's morals aren't outdated or naive. He's exactly the kind of hero you want and need. And since every hero needs a good villain, the film provided one in the form of Pierce. No costume, no hyperbolic speeches, no Red Skull, just a man looking to take away everybody's freedom because he believes Hydra will bring peace and order to the world. And who doesn't want that, right?

    Unless the order is that of an ant colony and the peace is that of the grave.

    But AoU ignored all that. Hydra went from a global threat at the end of CA:TWS to a punch line in AoU. (This is what comes of nuking Zola in TWS, you lose your brain trust.) And Baron Strucker, he had a blink-and-you'll-miss-it role.

    Without Hydra, Ultron was left to fill the vacuum and he should have been the Avenger's greatest enemy. Instead, Ultron's character was underdeveloped, underwritten and ultimately underwhelming. That's one of the film's many missed opportunities. And there was so much potential. You could have played on the Frankenstein idea, creator and his creation or of contentious father/son relationships (a Marvel favorite) and played upon the Cain and Abel aspects of Ultron and The Vision. (Let me add that the Vision was not a terribly well developed character either. However, since the Vision has always been enigmatic that didn't hurt the character. Plus, Bettany played him just right, giving the character the proper mixture of nobility and strength. Sometimes, a little mystery is a good thing, but not in your villain.)

    Instead Ultron never became a global threat. It's not good when your villain says "I'm so evil" and does nothing really evil. Actually, Ultron is more annoying than anything else. And his master plan, his Marvin the Martian "Earth shattering kaboom" of a plan, comes straight from the mind of Wil E. Coyote, Supergenius. It's that bad and makes about as much sense.

    Of course, part of that stems from Marvel's blindspot when it comes to civilian casualties: it refuses to allow anyone ever to die because of the super heroic melees and so while these fights are cool they are without real world consequence. So, Marvel has the Hulk and Iron Man go at it hammer and tongs in Johannesburg and not a single civilian gets so much as a hang nail? That's just unrealistic. That's a video game. Marvel should be setting its sights higher.

    And when death finally comes its a Classic-Star-Trek-Red-Shirt death and so no one really cares because the death changes nothing. It is an example of poor writing, the kind of stunt death you're taught to avoid in Screenwriting 101. This is war, to coin a phrase, and in war people, the good, the bad and the innocent, die. But Marvel wants to have their cake and eat it too. All the destructive calories without the unsightly carnage. (Marvel seems to scramble in the film's third act to atone for its previous "evacuate the city" mantra and it only serves to slooooow the film dooooooown.)

    In the end AoU is about maintaining the Marvel status quo, about treading water because for all the front loading the movie does for future films, it ignores the Stark/Rogers disagreement that fuels Civil War. They part as allies without a seed of discord planted. Is their parting of the ways to take place offscreen, between now and Cap 3? Like the takedown of Hydra? I hope not because that would be a cheat.

    Finally, it looks like the narrative heavy lifting, the development of weighty themes falls to the Cap movies. The good news is the same writers and directors are not only doing Cap 3 but the Infinity Wars. And perhaps we'll get an extended cut of AoU one day, a version that makes more sense.

    Bottom line, the theatrical version is not going in my Blu-ray collection.
    Last edited by Killgrave; 05-10-2015 at 03:25 PM.

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