Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 113

Thread: People like FFXIII so much WHY GOD WHY? its the biggest betrayal ever to ff fans

  1. #51
    Shriner
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    73
    Olde: I know it's slightly nitpicky, but there is actually the sidequest where you put Bhakti back together. I know it's hardly a broad range, but there is one or two differences from go here and kill that. Also as much as I understand your point about it being overly simplified, it still comes down to a matter of taste. You're saying that if your only options are to go forward and press X then it is not worth playing, but that is just your opinion. I still enjoy playing Super Mario which is just go forward and jump, I enjoyed playing Sonic which was just go forward and jump. I understand it is a big departure from the series' previous style, but it is still one that will have appealed to some people. For every person who found it too boring and easy, there would be someone who had previously found FF games too complicated and would have enjoyed it.

    NG: I don't understand your point as you were the one who brought up FFVII, not me. The fact is you clearly have a problem with FFVII and FFXIII and that's fine, just don't expect everyone to agree with you. Even if FFXIII was the worst game in history, there would still be someone who would like it. Just like there are people who like crappy movies. Everyone's taste is different.

  2. #52
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    New Raccoon city
    Posts
    1,061
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMuta View Post
    Olde: I know it's slightly nitpicky, but there is actually the sidequest where you put Bhakti back together. I know it's hardly a broad range, but there is one or two differences from go here and kill that. Also as much as I understand your point about it being overly simplified, it still comes down to a matter of taste. You're saying that if your only options are to go forward and press X then it is not worth playing, but that is just your opinion. I still enjoy playing Super Mario which is just go forward and jump, I enjoyed playing Sonic which was just go forward and jump. I understand it is a big departure from the series' previous style, but it is still one that will have appealed to some people. For every person who found it too boring and easy, there would be someone who had previously found FF games too complicated and would have enjoyed it.

    NG: I don't understand your point as you were the one who brought up FFVII, not me. The fact is you clearly have a problem with FFVII and FFXIII and that's fine, just don't expect everyone to agree with you. Even if FFXIII was the worst game in history, there would still be someone who would like it. Just like there are people who like crappy movies. Everyone's taste is different.
    I know i did, but as an example.I also talk about FFVIII and FFX as well.
    I don't talk much about ff4 though, because i figure its been talked about a lot already.Some crappy movies are still entertaining, because they are so bad.An example of a game for me like this, is FFVIII.It is so damn cheesy, that i actually replay it just to laugh at the cheesy scenes and i get entertainment out of it more than the gameplay itself.FFVIII is one of those games i play just to watch the videos.There are probably people out there though who will disagree with me, although at least i get entertainment out of it.You get what you put into the game.I honestly tried to like FFXIII.If they enjoy it, fine, but don't expect me to agree on it being better than the previous games.

    I also want to comment on something about XIII-2 that bothers me:The quick time events.

    Also:I didn't know there was anymore quests other than the 60 fetch quests.Where do you get the quest?

  3. #53
    Shriner
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    73
    No one is expecting to you to like it. You're the one who has a problem with people who like the game and "don't understand" how they can. I don't know what else there is to say as myself and others have put forward the points for possible reasons for liking the game. Nobody is saying they are reasons for you to like it, we are giving reasons others like it

    The quick time events were for people who complained about the battle system being too basic and boring.

    And I don't know what fetch quests are, sorry.

  4. #54
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,273
    Olde:
    You missed my point I think. I was pointing out that this was the way they chose to do it - I didn't say that I thought it was the best way to do it. In fact I'm pretty sure I said I thought it *wasn't* the best way, precisely because it was so gamer unfriendly and more like a movie than a game. I did say that I found it interesting, and could enjoy it on those terms, because I just like something that is out of the ordinary, and at least in terms of artistic vision, this is a viable and interesting way to do it. Purely in an academic 'Oh, so that's how you're doing it' kind of way.

    But as I also said, it doesn't make it easier to play, nor was it particularly appropriate for a game which was anticipated by such a large audience, who expected something very different. I can respect and be approving of a game that doesn't work in the usual way, because that's the kind of thing I like. But I was very clear that I thought this kind of approach in this game was almost certainly not the correct one. That whilst it interests me, due to my lack of interest in gameplay and my 'Ah, I've seen all this before - show me something NEW!' kind of attitude, I fully realize that there is a time and place for everything. This game, the Final Fantasy title, it implies a certain experience that this game had no interest in delivering, certainly not in the way that most would be expecting it to.

    I'm always pleased when something defied my expectations and is completely different. I may not always like the product, but I like the surprise, because we have so few of those in the industry now. In this case, I *did* like the product, and I very much liked the surprise. So it was win-win for me. And we'll have to agree to disagree on the 'Did they make the plot to match the gameplay'. I suggest to you that a desire for a more contained story driven experience than FF12 (at least at first), gave rise to the director's initial vision. There is simply no way that the game would be made in this kind of user unfriendly way (whatever you think of them, its suicidal to do even one of such things like no exp for the first 2 levels, no party select until 20 hours in, no choice of which character to play, no side quests etc etc).

    There is literally no chance at all IMO, that they thought all that was the best idea gameplay wise and molded the story to fit that. It was the other way around. I have no proof obviously, seeing as how I don't work for Square, but other than 'Everyone went temporarily insane' there's just no way they thought those gameplay decisions were so amazing that they needed an appropriate story to support them. Whereas the idea of a game whose gameplay reacts to and develops based on the story and characters, whose world is molded to tell the story of the narrative through your interaction (or forced non-interaction, followed by massive freedom of interaction) makes perfect sense.

    Its still a bizarre thing to do, and again its a case of self indulgent arthouse noodling, that was packaged in a summer blockbuster box and sold to people in a way that is ethically rather dubious (because *nobody* thought they were getting a game like this when they bought it). The best example I can give (if you go back this far) is when Radiohead released Kid A. Until then, they were a good but obviously alternative indie rock group, and were massive because of that. So when their new album came out, everyone rushed to buy it... and found it was some kind of ultra bizarre, highly experimental, completely non commercial friendly electronica, with only about 1 and a half proper actual songs.

    But before we get lost in exploring the intricacies of experimental music, and start talking about Fourtet and the let, I'll wrap this up by simply saying that this thread is about 'Why does anyone likes this game?' I have never defended the game as something that people should like, or that people are wrong not to like. If you look, I've been very clear about that. I said why *I* liked it.



    Sheechiibii
    They are being hunted everywhere on Cocoon - they aren't on Pulse. Surely you can see the difference? On Cocoon, they are literally being hunted with every step. What side quests would be possible? 'Hey, aren't you the guys from the news who are dangerous Pulse monsters come to infect and kill us all? Could you find 10 Phoenix Downs for me?'

    Not very likely, no?

    Plus, the revelation that they have the brands is fresh. Like anyone who is told they have a terminal illness, there is period where they must adjust, as the natural reaction is to think 'I could die at any time from this thing?' Until you realize that even if that is the case, you have to live your life. Away from the bustle of the people chasing them, on a Planet where nobody knows who they are, they have time to come with terms with their situation and accept that they just have to try and go on like normal - because what other choice is there? Run at full speed everywhere, to save every last second? The threat to immediate wellbeing is lessened on Pulse, making it more of a case of where their minds are at. That is what informs their decisions to help the Cieth.



    As to FFX, again its not as black and white as you're painting it. Yevon's control is more an honorific than an actual reality. Just because many of the regions are signed up in principle, doesn't mean that the Yevon leadership and forces have immediate and total control everywhere. Its a low tech society, with much more primitive communication and transport. Yevon can't desseminate the word about the group to everywhere at the touch of a button (most places just flat out either don't know or don't care). With no media screens blasting their images to all regions (do they think get much TV and radio on Mt Gagazet?!) They don't have a large and organized air force to scour the land like the Sanctum, and unlike FF13 where fear of Pulse L'Cie is absolute, their accusations against Yuna and co are much harder for the people to swallow (basically everyone who meets Yuna loves her as their Summoner - so the people take no notice of the charges).

    Plus Seymour is basically acting on his own authority. You say you are enemies of them for the rest of the game, but that doesn't really manifest. Its clear that it is only him and his supporters that are your enemy. The various regions and even the other Maesters don't share his views. He's forced to recruit the rest of the Guado to see his plans through, because he knows he won't get the support from Yevon.

    In FF13, the Sanctum and the public are of one mind - the L'Cie need to found, captured or killed. The Sanctum have ground and air forces, with the most advanced military and information technology that money can buy, all devoted to finding and stopping them. They have the public on their side, and despite divisions between PSICOM and the Guardian Corps, they still both believe the L'Cie need to be stopped. That is a far greater threat than the FFX team face - where the wishes of the leadership, and their ability to make it happen on the ground are nothing like absolute. Their reach exceeds their grasp to coin an old phrase. Short of sending troops and agents to each specific area, they have no practical or precise control over any region outside of Bevelle (and even if they have soldiers in a place, it doesn't follow they have the means to contact them, give the vital details of the party, and whip up public support to aid in the search).

    So the suggestion that there could be side quests on Cocoon makes no sense to me at all. The whole place is on alert, of one mind, dedicated to finding and capturing/killing them. There is nowhere they can go that can't be instantly notified and brought up to speed. They can be chased and overtaken wherever they choose to go, and once word gets out on the news, they literally aren't safe anywhere. Whereas in FFX, you can go somewhere and most people still won't know you from Adam. And even if they do, you have Yuna and Auron with you, who are celebrities in their own ways.

    Look at it this way - Robin Hood and his Merry Men evaded the Sheriff of Nottingham by just hiding in a wood. In those times, that was enough to be safe. But if they tried doing it these days, they'd be facing helicopters with infrared scanners, satellite imagery, search teams could be called in from all regions, and communicate and co-ordinate instantly with each other. So whilst at first glance the situations of the party from FFX and FFXIII may seem similar, its obvious that they aren't at all.
    Last edited by Vrykolas; 09-30-2013 at 09:03 PM.

  5. #55
    RIP FFShrine: 2001-2010 Olde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMuta View Post
    I know it's slightly nitpicky, but there is actually the sidequest where you put Bhakti back together. I know it's hardly a broad range, but there is one or two differences from go here and kill that.
    Okay, two. Two kinds of sidequests in the place where FF13 supposedly "opens up." And tell me, is that really so different from 'go here, kill this'? It's a fetch quest, it boils down to going someplace and picking something up. Does that really count as a different quest from a mark quest? And in any case, what do you accomplish? You get a robot that rewards you for the number of steps you take (wow) and for owning every item, accessory, and weapon in the game. It that's not laziness, I don't know what is. At least FF12 had lots of different things to get in the Sky Pirate's Den.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMuta View Post
    Also as much as I understand your point about it being overly simplified, it still comes down to a matter of taste. You're saying that if your only options are to go forward and press X then it is not worth playing, but that is just your opinion. I still enjoy playing Super Mario which is just go forward and jump, I enjoyed playing Sonic which was just go forward and jump. I understand it is a big departure from the series' previous style, but it is still one that will have appealed to some people. For every person who found it too boring and easy, there would be someone who had previously found FF games too complicated and would have enjoyed it.
    I too enjoy Super Mario and Sonic games. There's a difference between those games, though. You're not really supposed to think about where Sonic and Mario are. The environments are just backdrops. You don't expect to be able to explore the Mushroom Kingdom in Super Mario Bros. In FF13, you're playing a (supposedly) human character who lives in a supposedly real environment that is isn't just theoretically an environment, but an actual place that could be explored. The environment shouldn't be a mere backdrop in a Final Fantasy game, because, well, the story is trying to be immersive, so why shouldn't the environment be? Furthermore, there's actual challenge in the level design of Mario and Sonic. The levels are different, memorable, and require some skill to get through; it's not just a corridor with pretty wallpaper. There are obstacles in the way that you have to navigate around and interact with. Because of that, I wouldn't say those games are just about going forward to the end. That's like saying The Odyssey is about a guy coming home. Whoopdie-shit, why make a story about that? Because there's a ton of obstacles in the way; Odysseus has to overcome trials of the gods to come back to Ithaca. The same principle holds true with Sonic and Mario; they don't just go down a linear corridor to the end. Where would the fun be in that?

    Which gets me to FF13. First of all, there aren't any physical obstacles in FF13. There's no thinking involved like there is with Mario and Sonic. I'm not saying those are deep intellectual games, but in FF13 you don't even have to press a button to jump over wreckage or pits. You literally just follow a hallway and your characters jump over or climb anything in their way when you approach. Which means there are zero environmental obstacles. So what is in the characters' way? Battles. Tedious, boring, easily won battles that, for the majority of the time, only require you to be conscious enough to mash the X button and to be not brain-dead enough to know when to switch paradigms. Really, there just isn't a lot strategy (I will say, however, that the battle system is borderline crippled, but that's another story, and I've spewed my hate about that before). That gives us no environmental obstacles and very little battle challenge.

    So when you say FF13 is like Mario or Sonic, I can't agree. It's nothing like them. The gameplay is completely different; for instance, there are actually things to be pay attention to in Mario and Sonic. Here's another side of it: you never really explore the backstories of Mario or Sonic. Mario is a plumber whose mission is to rescue Princess Peach and defeat Bowser. Mario doesn't have a sister who's marrying some guy he doesn't like who ends up getting her turned into a ticking time-bomb who has to complete a mission that's totally unclear to her. Final Fantasy has operatic storylines. You're supposed to think about, appreciate, connect with, and care about the characters, their interactions, developments, motives, etc. There's a level of depth to them (well, there's supposed to be, anyway). Mario's only lines are "Whoo-hoo!" and "It's-a-me! Mario!" Mario is an accessible game that's fun to play. So it's excusable that there's less world interaction. Linear, yes. Fun, hell yes. Final Fantasy's story calls for immersion. If Toriyama and Kitase want me to take their story seriously, I'm willing to do that if it's compelling, if it makes sense, and if it's immersive. And to me it fails on all three counts.

    And look, I'm not saying people shouldn't like this game. What do I care if someone thinks that FF13 is the greatest thing since sliced bread? I'm just telling you why it makes much more sense for this to have been a movie, not a video game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrykolas View Post
    They are being hunted everywhere on Cocoon - they aren't on Pulse. Surely you can see the difference? On Cocoon, they are literally being hunted with every step. What side quests would be possible? 'Hey, aren't you the guys from the news who are dangerous Pulse monsters come to infect and kill us all? Could you find 10 Phoenix Downs for me?'

    Not very likely, no?

    So the suggestion that there could be side quests on Cocoon makes no sense to me at all. The whole place is on alert, of one mind, dedicated to finding and capturing/killing them. There is nowhere they can go that can't be instantly notified and brought up to speed. They can be chased and overtaken wherever they choose to go, and once word gets out on the news, they literally aren't safe anywhere.
    I'm not saying they should be doing favors for a PSICOM member or do a fetch quest for someone who wants them out of Cocoon as soon as humanly possible. But remember how many places you go to that aren't populated at all: Lake Bresha, Vile Peaks, Gapra Whitewood, Sunleth Waterscape, etc. Why couldn't there be dissenters (maybe even L'Cie themselves?) who don't care for the edicts of Eden? Or maybe there could be people who don't have access to technology for some reason or another and who welcome the party with hospitality. Just because they're on the run doesn't mean they automatically can't talk to anyone during the course of the rest of the game.

    Oh, and by the way, nobody could recognize Sazh and Vanille as L'Cie in Nautilus because they weren't broadcasted on TV. So they could have done any number of side quests there. It had the potential for minigames and side quests (no, I'm not counting that stupid chocobo thing you have to do) and instead was a huge let-down. Again, I'm not saying break the atmosphere completely and make Sazh and Vanille lose their minds with wack-a-mole or whatever. But basically all they do in Nautilus is mope around. I get it, they're depressed. But the game is depressing me by its complete neglect for anything fun.
    Last edited by Olde; 09-30-2013 at 09:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1982_tarheels View Post
    Reddas is the guy who got his brains blown out by Travolta in the backseat of Jules' car.
    Quote Originally Posted by ManRay View Post
    Oh, now i get it...

    Your Posts aren't meant to be ironic... You actually think you're funny....
    I fucking hate FFShrine.

  6. #56
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,273
    But would you talk to people, on the off-chance that they will support you? If you're on the run, then you avoid contact, because you know that everyone could be getting your info over the wires at any minute? The whole basis of that society is that L'Cie are feared, and Pulse is a terrible threat. The populace is already on edge because of the Euride Gorge terrorist attack, and the Purge at Bodhum - they are in no mood for hearing what L'Cie have to say for themselves. Anyone who is caught associating with L'Cie is purged.

    That doesn't mean that nobody is willing to help. Hope's dad berates the party for thinking he would turn on his son for any reason, no matter what the news tells him. And when they decide to return, they think 'Look, maybe people will turn on us, but if we try to make our case, then maybe someone will listen'. And through their actions helping people during the 'Pulse INvasion', they are able to start changing people's attitudes (including Rosch of all people). But at the start of the game, this is all theory - even if you thought some people might help you, how would you know who to trust and whether it was safe to talk to someone? This has *just* happened to them, they have just been saddled with a death sentence, and given a new role as terrorists and enemies of the state. Their loved ones are being held captive, and they have people who on right on their heels after their blood.

    This is not the time to be playing basketball on the Gold Saucer or collecting issues of Occult Fan magazine, I would suggest.

    As for Sazh and Vanille at Nautillus, that is the lowest point that both characters reach - they go to the City intending to forget their troubles, but their conversation just before they board makes it obvious that this won't be possible. Vanille is already planning to leave Sazh and try to find Fang before the end comes. Sazh has already made up his mind to turn himself in to PSICOM, so he can see his son again, before he dies.

    That would be the absolute most inappropriate time to give you a bunch of side missions! What you're saying is not wrong - that having them mope around is not fun for the gamer. But it *is* appropriate. The game is making the right decisions artistically, to tell the story, but it is absolutely making the wrong decisions to satisfy a gamer. Which has been both out points - we agree on this. But you see that as proof that the game is wrong to do this, and should be 'more of an actual game', whereas I'm perfectly happy to accept it as a piece of art and take it on those terms. I agree its the wrong thing to do in terms of making a game, of making something that people are supposed to play and want to interact with.

    And I fully accept why people are disappointed. But I can only speak for myself, and though I know this is all wrong with my head, I love how different an experience it is, and the way its is telling its story, with my heart. All the arguments of 'But its not a game!' (at least at this point - it is later on), pale next to the fact (in my case) that I like it. If I'm getting an experience I like, that I find fascinating in the way it is presented, then I couldn't care less if it resembles a game, a movie or whatever. The game eventually opened out, so I could also enjoy it in gameplay terms. But I was so into the experience that I perfectly happy to go along with the restrictions and artistic decisions up to that point.

    Because it made sense to me - if they'd put in these kinds of low interaction, linear corridors and severely restricted features until the later stages, for no reason that was supported by the narrative, then damn right I would have had a problem! But it did have a narrative basis to do these things, and it sold me on its way of doing things. So when I finally did see the team grow together and reunite as a proper team in Chapter 9, I cheered when the team select unlocked, because it made perfect sense for it to do so at that point. The same when I reached Pulse and you saw those huge sweeping vista as you arrived, and when you first enter the main area, and see how *huge* it is, with those massive adamantoises stomping past, and Titan looming in the background. I literally spent ages just running about, cackling to myself with wild abandon at the freedom I felt.

    I know, I know... 'What an arty sap this guy is!' I hear you cry (amongst other things - but is that kind of language really appropriate in a family forum? .)

    But that's how I felt. You just don't see companies taking risks like this for the sake of art anymore. So they have my mark for doing it.
    Last edited by Vrykolas; 09-30-2013 at 09:48 PM.

  7. #57
    RIP FFShrine: 2001-2010 Olde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by Vrykolas View Post
    But I was so into the experience...it sold me on its way of doing things.
    This is what it comes down to. It didn't sell me on it. I completely understand why you agree with the points made for the story. It's just that I personally was not sold. They didn't succeed in convincing me to sacrifice the elements of gameplay that I felt were essential in order to see how the story played out.

    In regard to your first point, there was technically no good time to play minigames during the course of the game, not ever. Even on Gran Pulse, the party was closer than ever to turning into Cie'th, so they should have just stuck to finishing their focus asap. But I want to suggest this scenario; it's a hyperbole, but bear with me: you're playing a guy running down a narrow, seemingly endless hallway, being pursued by police. If you stop to do anything, you're caught. All you have to do is hold the analog stick forward for 25 hours, after which time the hallway gets slightly wider so you can move left and right, but you still have to move forward. After another 10 hours, the police give up and you win. Your argument that the game's restrictions match the artistic vision is like that to me. Sure, it makes sense to not do minigames when you're a fugitive, but, in my very humble and personal opinion, a good game that does not make. The restrictions felt artificial to me, like they preceded the conception of the story and that they only existed to hinder your independence and autonomy. By the way, and this is a minor point, I didn't think that when it opened up, you were actually given much more freedom. There's still nobody to talk to (Cie'th stones just give you missions). It's very isolated even with all the monsters roaming around, and you don't get a sense of how other people see the world, except as raging mad lunatics on a witch hunt in Cocoon. I didn't like that.

  8. #58
    Grand Shriner Sheechiibii's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    115
    Sorry, but pretty much all the FF games are on a strict time limit story-wise. It's never a good time for the party to go do side games or quests. Was it a good time in VIII when an evil sorceress was going to destroy the world if she found Ellone before you defeated her? Was it a good time in IX when an evil alien was going to take over the world and kill everyone on it if you didn't stop him in time? Is it inappropriate to go do side missions while these things are happening? Yep, probably, but we can choose to do them anyway. XIII is the only one that hasn't let you do anything other than the main storyline. How are you supposed to care about this world and the people in it when you have no interaction at all with them?

  9. #59
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    New Raccoon city
    Posts
    1,061
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheechiibii View Post
    Sorry, but pretty much all the FF games are on a strict time limit story-wise. It's never a good time for the party to go do side games or quests. Was it a good time in VIII when an evil sorceress was going to destroy the world if she found Ellone before you defeated her? Was it a good time in IX when an evil alien was going to take over the world and kill everyone on it if you didn't stop him in time? Is it inappropriate to go do side missions while these things are happening? Yep, probably, but we can choose to do them anyway. XIII is the only one that hasn't let you do anything other than the main storyline. How are you supposed to care about this world and the people in it when you have no interaction at all with them?
    There is another kind of strict limitation:Creating your own character and choosing your dialogue to choose the outcome and your character's personality.Jrpgs usually don't to this either.You know what i mean.Is there a jrpg where you can choose what kind of person you are? only thing that had multiple paths in terms of endings i've seen, are in other genres within japanese game designs.

  10. #60
    Grand Shriner Sheechiibii's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    115
    I like games that don't let you create your own character or choose their dialogue, I much prefer them over games where you choose who your character is and what they look like. I prefer a great story with great characters over the ability to have options in conversations. I like characters that I can get to know and love, not blank canvases.

  11. #61
    Shriner
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    73
    I'm with Vrykolas. I understand why they did the things they did and felt that it helped the storyline, which is often ultimately the biggest selling point of a Final Fantasy. Would people still have been moved by FFVII as much if Aeris didn't die? Not really. Would they have still played it if you didn't get to ride a motorbike? Probably. I can understand other people's views to a degree at what they felt was wrong with the game, but a lot of these problems are caused by your own pre-conceived notions. Where in the development period did they say there would be an abundance of towns or a wide variety of side quests? They didn't. You simply assumed so, just because some of the predecessors did. Final Fantasy isn't like most series, they aren't all linked or follow any continuity, they are all individual.

    If you chose to assume that certain aspects would be in the game even with no evidence and no word from the developers that it would be, then that is your own fault. I wouldn't buy a Tomb Raider game then complain that I wasn't allowed to roam around her mansion or swim in her pool just because I was able to in a game made fifteen years ago.

  12. #62
    Grand Shriner Sheechiibii's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    115
    I didn't assume or expect anything from the game, other than thinking it would be enjoyable. I didn't assume there'd be heaps of towns etc, and to be honest that's not even a big factor for me. It's everything added together that makes the game so horrible. It's not that there are no towns. It's that there are no towns, no npcs, no sidequests, no world to explore, no hidden locations, lack of variation for character growth, weapons development, battle style, no likeable characters, a story they didn't make me care about. Basically, it had absolutely nothing going for it, and I think whenever someone buys a game, they buy it because they expect it to have at least something going for it.

  13. #63
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    New Raccoon city
    Posts
    1,061
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMuta View Post
    I'm with Vrykolas. I understand why they did the things they did and felt that it helped the storyline, which is often ultimately the biggest selling point of a Final Fantasy. Would people still have been moved by FFVII as much if Aeris didn't die? Not really. Would they have still played it if you didn't get to ride a motorbike? Probably. I can understand other people's views to a degree at what they felt was wrong with the game, but a lot of these problems are caused by your own pre-conceived notions. Where in the development period did they say there would be an abundance of towns or a wide variety of side quests? They didn't. You simply assumed so, just because some of the predecessors did. Final Fantasy isn't like most series, they aren't all linked or follow any continuity, they are all individual.

    If you chose to assume that certain aspects would be in the game even with no evidence and no word from the developers that it would be, then that is your own fault. I wouldn't buy a Tomb Raider game then complain that I wasn't allowed to roam around her mansion or swim in her pool just because I was able to in a game made fifteen years ago.
    1:Someone being moved or not by aeris death has nothing to do with FFXIII.She hardly had the relation that tifa had with cloud.
    2:You are blaming him because of other people's opinions? what that makes no sense.So you are saying others hate FFXIII because of him?
    3:Good games try to add more things, not take them out.If you take out more than you add new things, that is a bad thing.Yes i am defending vrykolas on this.
    4:Having gameplay has nothing to do with continuity, because it is something individual series add to make their series different from the rest and keep it interesting and fresh.If you don't give people a reason to replay your game, nobody will want to.On the other hand, other games add a ton of stuff which adds replay value.
    5:What you are saying about the mansion and being able to explore the map is apples and oranges.Some games take place in different areas, and some amount of linearity in platform games and shooters is usually expected, but less so in rpgs.

    Some games simply sacrifice too much gameplay, and the story ends up not being worth it.FFX/FFXIII

    How do i know this? because i played it and experience it myself.And because of the complaints it gets about its story.I think creating characters with real problems and real struggles really adds to the immersion.It also helps to have some characters with some likeable qualities.It gets really old if characters bitch all the time and don't do anything else, and you don't get new gameplay features for your sacrifice.So far, i haven't found a game story that comes even close to rivaling lord of the rings books or the lovecraft books.The reason also it wouldn't work, is because you have to balance gameplay and story, and all text wouldn't work in a videogame very well.Its not a novel.Balance is the best type of games.Same goes for movies.A videogame isn't the same type of media, so it won't work well.Cutscenes are a supplement to the story to add immersion to the story.Cutscenes aren't supposed to be the only thing in a videogame.
    Last edited by Nostalgia gamer; 10-01-2013 at 09:40 AM.

  14. #64
    Shriner
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheechiibii View Post
    I didn't assume or expect anything from the game, other than thinking it would be enjoyable. I didn't assume there'd be heaps of towns etc, and to be honest that's not even a big factor for me. It's everything added together that makes the game so horrible. It's not that there are no towns. It's that there are no towns, no npcs, no sidequests, no world to explore, no hidden locations, lack of variation for character growth, weapons development, battle style, no likeable characters, a story they didn't make me care about. Basically, it had absolutely nothing going for it, and I think whenever someone buys a game, they buy it because they expect it to have at least something going for it.
    Have you even played the game? Because it certainly doesn't sound like it. It has more weapons and weapon development than any other non-online Final Fantasy, it has a huge world to explore on Pulse and there are plenty of places you don't have to go to, which is what I assume is meant by "hidden locations." As for the other points. Likeable characters and you not caring about the story is just your own opinion. I enjoyed the story and as annoying as I found Hope and Snow to be at the beginning, I grew to like all the characters (especially Vanille) by the time the game finished.

    It's fine for you to have an opinion as each of us on here all do, but don't try and pass off your opinion as fact.

    EDIT: To NG, sorry I can't even understand what you're saying. Not trying to be awkward but I just really don't know what you're on about.

  15. #65
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    New Raccoon city
    Posts
    1,061
    I'm responding to what you said to vrykolas, because it makes no sense.

  16. #66
    Grand Shriner Sheechiibii's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    115
    I've played it twice. The first time I played it all the second time I couldn't stand to play even half of it. The weapons development consists of keeping the first weapon you get and upgrading it whenever you have the parts. That's not variety. It has no world to explore. It has corridors with pretty pictures on the walls and a field. Seeing pretty graphics of a world is not the same as having that world to explore. Yes, it's my opinion, I never said it was anything other than that. Where did I ever say my opinion was fact? But to say the reason I disliked it is my own fault for expecting too much? What? For expecting something other than garbage? Yeah no. The game is what it is, some people will like that and others won't, and if someone doesn't like it, that's not their fault for expecting too much.

  17. #67
    Shriner
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    73
    NG: What I said makes no sense? Let's start with the fact you've responded in numbered form, even though my point was made in numbered form, so that makes no sense. You don't use spaces or structure sentences so I can't even read it which makes it even harder, but I will try and discern what you're saying.

    1. My references to FFVII were merely a comparison, I never said there was a direct link. Like when you referenced Cloud and Sephiroth remember? Remember when you refused to be drawn on it anymore because I proved you wrong?

    2. Blaming who? Maybe try reading again, there's no blame in there.

    3. So you think a great game would be something which just adds and adds and adds. Well that's just moronic. You can't have every aspect of every game in one single title, it would makes things overly complex and confusing.

    4. I really have no idea what you mean by this one. However I've replayed it. I enjoyed it, you didn't. Deal with it.

    5. Not at all. You expected something out of the game that was never promised. Square-Enix never said the title would have an open world, lots of sidequests, or lots of towns and NPCs. You merely assumed it. Which is why I made my point about Tomb Raider. You are complaining because a game was lacking something it never claimed to have, simply because an older title had it.

    Sheechiibii: Like I said, your view on the story is an opinion. However you stating there is no weapon development is a fact, an incorrect fact. Just because you did not enjoy the style of weapon development, does not mean it wasn't there. The same way that you view some of the maze like areas on Pulse as just corridors with pretty pictures, doesn't mean they are not very much areas available to explore.

    I find the whole corridor argument and this growing phrase playable movie simply bizarre. Because I hate to break it to you, but all Final Fantasy games have been that. When you leave Midgar for the first time in FFVII, it doesn't matter if you randomly go left for no reason, because you're going to have to go right at some point to continue the story. In FFVIII when you first exit Balamb Garden, it doesn't matter if you wander around in the fields for hours, because you're still going to have to go fight Ifrit.

    Freedom in Final Fantasy is merely an illusion, you have no real impact on the outcome of the game. Previous titles simply gave you the option to wander around timewasting, whereas with FFXIII they attempted to streamline everything. However as I've already mentioned they clearly saw this as a failed experiment themselves and reverted back to type with the sequel, so I feel no need to continue discussing this.

    Back to the topic, NG is complaining about people liking FFXIII and questioning why they would. We have given you reasons why they would. You do not have to agree with them, but that's that. There is nothing else I or anyone else can say about the matter now, so I won't be commenting again.

    Have a nice day everyone

  18. #68
    Grand Shriner Sheechiibii's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    115
    That list I stated that the game doesn't have, those are things it didn't have for me, not for everyone, I said right from my first response on here that everyone has different opinions on the same thing. What I see as lacking someone else might not. The same goes for the weapon development, I thought it was pointless and non-existent, you thought otherwise. I don't have to understand how you can find something an explorable world and you don't have to understand why I find it to be nothing but corridors with pretty pictures. That's the point I tried to make to NG back when I first replied. None of us are right or wrong for liking or disliking something, and it's nobodies fault if a game doesn't turn out good for them.

    The freedom might be an illusion, but it's an illusion that allows the player to feel immersed in the world. It gives the player a break from the story for a while, gives them a choice, gives them a world to explore. If you don't feel like you're in the world of Final Fantasy XIII, then why would you care what happens to it? The discussion about XIII, not XIII-2, so whether or not they changed things in the sequel seems kind of irrelevant when it comes to criticism about the game.

  19. #69
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    New Raccoon city
    Posts
    1,061
    FFXIII is garbage, hate to break it to you.Previous games at least gave you the illusion of freedom of choice, while FFXIII gives none of that.

    1. My references to FFVII were merely a comparison, I never said there was a direct link. Like when you referenced Cloud and Sephiroth remember? Remember when you refused to be drawn on it anymore because I proved you wrong?

    2. Blaming who? Maybe try reading again, there's no blame in there.

    You said it was his fault that people are criticizing FFXIII.You clearly didn't make yourself clear.

    3. So you think a great game would be something which just adds and adds and adds. Well that's just moronic. You can't have every aspect of every game in one single title, it would makes things overly complex and confusing.

    Yes i think a game shouldn't take out too much, because that is a bad thing.Videogames are meant to be fun.If a game isn't fun, it fails to be anything.Gta is fun for people because they like to run around and steal cars and murder prostitutes.If you were to take that out, people would be angry probably, because that is part of the fun.Exploration and story is a big part of rpgs, take that out and you have nothing.FFXIII isn't even an rpg.Rpg definition is roleplaying.

    the acting out or performance of a particular role, either consciously (as a technique in psychotherapy or training) or unconsciously, in accordance with the perceived expectations of society with regard to a person's behavior in a particular context.
    2.
    participation in a role-playing game.

    Translate roleplaying to
    Use over time for: roleplaying

    Hence FFXIII doesn't give you any of that, so its not an rpg.Its a shitty soap opera. movie

    4. I really have no idea what you mean by this one. However I've replayed it. I enjoyed it, you didn't. Deal with it.

    You now sound like a fanboy.Enjoy your emo characters and lackluster gameplay.

    5. Not at all. You expected something out of the game that was never promised. Square-Enix never said the title would have an open world, lots of sidequests, or lots of towns and NPCs. You merely assumed it. Which is why I made my point about Tomb Raider. You are complaining because a game was lacking something it never claimed to have, simply because an older title had it.

    A gamer is supposed to expect something, not bend over and be their bitch.The customer is usually right.Actually:Squeenix should bend over for us rather than us to them, because if it wasn't for us, they would make no money.If they want to compete with american rpgs, they have to have something compelling, or they flop and go out of business.Completely ignoring the problem won't make it go away or make things better, because squeenix will just repeat the same mistake unless we put our foot down.If you love the series, sometimes you have to put your foot down for things you care about.

  20. #70
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,273
    Olde:
    I understand that the gaming experience was severely compromised. Its not like I played this game going 'Mmm HMM, Linear corridors, no exploration, that's the ticket!' But I understood why they were doing it (eventually - I admit I was perplexed/bemused on the early levels, when you don't even earn Exp - at all - until Chapter 3). But once I realized that this was to use another music reference 'a concept album' of a game, then I was totally fine with it.

    Like we discussed before, I just don't care about gameplay anymore, really. I've been playing games a long, long time and I haven't been able to play games purely for their gameplay for years and years now. It doesn't mean I don't get any enjoyment from the gameplay in various games - its just that to interest me, it has to have something more. Be that a compelling story, atmosphere, or just *something*, anything that isn't the same old experience, that you didn't even really need to open the box and play the game to know exactly what it was going to deliver. When I play something like the Tales games for example, which are well written and funny and charming, but are essentially all the same, I sort of enter autopilot. Just as I do with games ranging from Halo 4, through Gears of War 3 and Mass Effect 3 etc. Its not that games aren't good in their own way, but they are offering such a safe, 'seen it all before' experience. So the games I gravitate towards are things like Killer7, Deadly Premonition etc that are just different - where I feel whether they were the best made games in terms of technique or not, it was an experience that woke me from my torpor, and said 'You're expecting that, were you?'

    So that in essence is why I like the guy who is writing the FF13 series. With each new game, he gives me something I didn't think I was going to get. He's a risk taker - and he was before he did FF13, because he also did FFX-2. That game made big changes to Yuna's character particularly, and to a certain extent to Rikku as well. He made a game which incorporated the element of choice (i.e that if you did certain tasks in the early acts, it would alter how the later acts played out in the various plot threads). He produced what really quite a subdued main plot, preferring instead to give you freedom to explore all kinds of side missions, and there were all sorts of neat little touches (the Al Bhed language which you can slowly learn etc). He was also doing a direct sequel which at that point, Final Fantasy didn't really do.

    It was light in tone, funny and with camp humour everywhere, so it felt almost surreal at times. In just about every regard, the game was different than what you thought it would be (Final Fantasy having a reputation by this point for big, sweeping epics etc). But he wanted to do a 'Charlie's Angels' concept, and limited the party to just 3 people, ignoring the common wisdom that gamers like as many characters as you can give them. And now we learn in Lightning Returns, you will only be able to control 1 character - Lightning herself. It sounds crazy, to not even have a party at all in a Final Fantasy game. And it could be the biggest train wreck ever, but at least it shows him shaking things up.


    As to the whole issue of other games allowing to do side stuff even when you're being chased etc. Yes, but that always drives me up the wall! In FFX, even when you're on the run and supposed to be laying low from Yevon, you can go to Luca... and play Blitzball! Oh, of course... because that's the obvious thing to do, isn't it? On the run from the authorities, so they go and take part in the most high profile activity that you can do on that world! This kind of incongruity always honks me off - like in Mass Effect 3 for example, where the Quarians need you to take out the Geth Dreadnought, where if you talk to Tali, she's all like 'Shit's going down - we need to go over and take that thing out like yesterday or the fleet is screwed! Let's go NOW!'

    But you can happily go off, trucking about the galaxy, do every other side mission ever, and only then go to the place - and there's no penalty. There's no 'Where the Hell have you *been*?! We asked you to come months ago, and now our whole fleet's been totally destroyed! You'd better have a good explanation.'

    'Well... see, there was this guy on the Citadel, and he was giving this clerk a hard time over a refund. I mean the guy wouldn't let it go... I felt it was my duty to step in. Then we went to the Casino, hung out watching vids at my place... oh, and I bought a new Melee Stunner mod for my pistol, see? Its not we were wasting time or anything...'

    But no, instead it doesn't matter at all. Its like no time has passed at all. The real joke being that these kinds of main missions are labelled 'Priority'. I mean, what was the word Priority mean to you? It means do it first or very soon, right? And yet if you do Priority missions first (you know, try and role play in a role playing game), then it locks side quests and you miss content - for absolutely no benefit. So the game actually *requires* you to do this kind of immersion breaking nonsense where you get told that you absolutely must do something right now or the shit's going to hit the fan, but in actuality you can and should put it off until you've done all the other side stuff, no matter how trivial.

    I'm not a fool - I know that video games have to work like this, to give a satisfying gaming experience. I know that you just have to take it with a pinch of salt that most of what you do in any video game cannot possibly actually be what happened. Unless we believe that our characters in Skyrim for example, are actually carrying 10 suits of armour, 3000 arrows, 5 swords, 6 two handed Axes, about 56 potions, and a full library of books. That our chests at home can hold infinite amounts of stuff, even stuff that plainly couldn't fit in there even if it was empty. That we can't actually changed clothes whilst jumping mid-air, that our character hasn't really killed thousands and thousands and thousands of people - by himself.

    Because there has to be some abstraction. Otherwise all games would be like Bushido Blade for example, where you'd die after being once by a bullet or sword or whatever - because that's what would in fact happen. People don't magically have the ability to take assault rifle bursts to the head and just be alright in a few seconds by ducking behind a wall. And even in FF13, the bottomless inventory is still in effect. But for the most part, FF13 was able to keep me immersed, because the realities of the narrative were being supported by the game's system and structure (by not giving side quests, locking the team based mechanics until they actually are a team, keeping non-combatants like Hope out of the fighting until he must fight etc etc etc).

    Would I want all games to be like that, all the time? Of course not - but it does kill the immersion for me, when I run into 'Oh, this is a video game, because that's how video games work' moments. Like the new Tomb Raider for example, where Lara Croft is instantly the greatest survivalist ever. That sort of thing really breaks the illusion, and whilst I absolutely understand why Video games must work this way, its always nice to see people trying a little bit new or experimental. Again, I don't think FF13 was at all the right place or time to do it in terms of delivering a product that people can access and enjoy in the way they expected and wanted to. But neither can I deny that right place and time or not, I really was into it, and this kind of thing is precisely why I stick with gaming - to find those games that are different.

    Anyway, I think I've said my piece adequately, so I have little more to add, beyond saying a few final words about the brands on Pulse and why its okay for them to do the Cieth stone stuff. The thing is that Brands are genetically encoded to punish a lack of focus (and Focus). They are given to L'Cie along with a specific task that must be accomplished. Because the only alternative is Death, the idea is that if the L'Cie's only likely source of purpose and determination will be to fulfull their focus. Because what else could they be mentally resolved to do - brands cannot be removed is the common wisdom. They can't kill the Fal'Cie who gave it to them (because that was Anima and it is already dead).

    So they can to quote the Quanari Arishok from Dragon Age 2 'Accept and Succeed or Deny and Die'. A brand is designed to punish sorrow, indecision and general lack of purpose, because it means the L'Cie in question is not accepting the only option they have - to complete their Focus. The team are able to stave off the progression of their brands on Pulse by Taking A Third Option. They choose to believe what Snow has been saying from the start, that they will find a way to Save Cocoon and get rid of their brands. Nobody has (apparently anyway) done this before, and taking such an attitude in tantamount to suicide, as it will eventually lead to them not completing their Focus.

    But they have chosen to believe it. They set their sights on Pulse, on Oerba etc. resolving to believe until their last breath, until the very last hope they have is gone, that they will somehow beat this thing. Liken it a cancer patient who refuses to give in, and believes against all medical advise that they *will* live somehow. The brands are slowed, because they now have purpose and a definite goal - it doesn't matter if people say 'That's crazy - all this will accomplish is your death'. (And Fang has a problem accepting it, but her Brand is stunted anyway, so she's able to hold that sceptical view). But the others are holding onto that belief, and that purpose saves them from becoming Cieth.

    Its a way of stopping the brands that few others would ever be able to manage. Because all the lore, all the odds seem to suggest that this attitude is no solution. That is doesn't matter what they do, they cannot remove those brands and they *must* do as they are told. But in choosing to absolutely believe that cannot be true, they find a way to beat the brands. So on Pulse, their determination and purpose (i,e that Oerba will, *must* hold the answers they seek), allows them the freedom to relax a bit and just say 'We're betting the farm on this, if it works then it works, if it doesn't... well, let's just assume it will work'.

    Its like these days when everyone suddenly doesn't have the time to do stuff, according to them. That any complication or obstacle in something causes them to abandon it entirely, because 'I don't have the time'. And its such a cheap answer, because you always find the time to do the things that matter to you, no matter how much 'the facts' may say otherwise. Once they are resolved to trust this last chance, they can find the time to help out the Cieth. Because if you're going to believe you have a chance on something like this, you need to be all in. Either you believe you'll survive and are *going* to beat this thing, or you don't.

    Like I said, if something matters enough to us, we find the time from somewhere.

    Anyway, I've said my piece on why I like the game, so I'll just be running along.

  21. #71
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    New Raccoon city
    Posts
    1,061
    Vrykolas ok so you like story more than gameplay so tell me:How do you feel about the story and characters in FFXIII?

    You talk about breaking immersion, so how do you feel about all those overly long cutscenes?

  22. #72
    RIP FFShrine: 2001-2010 Olde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMuta View Post
    5. Not at all. You expected something out of the game that was never promised. Square-Enix never said the title would have an open world, lots of sidequests, or lots of towns and NPCs. You merely assumed it. Which is why I made my point about Tomb Raider. You are complaining because a game was lacking something it never claimed to have, simply because an older title had it.
    Not just an older title, all the older titles. It's like a new Harry Potter book without wizardry; instead, it's a story about Harry's personal life in England, his interactions with women, a coming-of-age story where he's learning who he is and reconciling conflicting emotions during adolescence. That could presumably be a good story, I'm not saying it couldn't. But it wouldn't be "Harry Potter." Of course, Square-Enix never overtly said "We'll definitely have lots of side content!" But over time, aspects that get developed within a series become understood as integral to that series. It's not just convention, it's intrinsic to the content. Say I debut a a new song to you, and all it has is an intro and a single, four-line verse. Oh, did you expect a chorus, another verse, maybe a bridge, and an outro? Stupid listener, I said all there needed to be said in that one verse. What did you expect? The same principle applies. Technically, there is nothing saying that Square-Enix has to have side quests. But that's like a Mortal Kombat game not having Scorpion or Sub-Zero; at a certain point, you have to ask, why bother? Why bother making a game at all if you're going down a linear corridor and mashing a button for combat? Why not just make a movie?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMuta View Post
    Freedom in Final Fantasy is merely an illusion, you have no real impact on the outcome of the game.
    In regard to your statement that freedom in Final Fantasy is an illusion, I beg to differ. I'm thinking specifically of FFVIII. For instance, you have the choice of going to the city of Balamb before you go on your first mission. This is entirely optional, but it gives you a better idea of the world around you. You get opinions of people, a frame of reference for the world and its inhabitants. Several events take place off-screen in FFVIII, and you're only way of knowing them is by talking to optional people. I really thought that that was an effective use of immersing the player with the game world. You do have a level of freedom in exploring the world, engaging in non-game-critical dialogues, in getting immersed in the environment and learning about current events and ways in which people think about the world.

    Now, you say, "you have no impact on the outcome of the game." Let's say you're right. I would in fact agree that the story of all previous Final Fantasies end the same way regardless of who plays it. But I would respond to you as a player with the question, what does the medium of a video game do for you? Why would a game designer make a game at all if the only point is to see how the writers made the story end? Why not make it a movie, a novel, a screenplay, a comic? I really do want to know how you would answer this. Because the point is, just because the player doesn't have the ability to rewrite cutscenes as he or she wants, that doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. We don't have to sacrifice nearly all levels of freedom just because you're watching a story unfold.

  23. #73
    Grand Shriner
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    263
    My two bits. All I cared about for the FFXIII series was the music.
    Hamauzu <3

  24. #74
    Onion Kid
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    7
    Well its so much better than ff 7 and ff 10

  25. #75
    Grand Shriner Sheechiibii's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    115
    Quote Originally Posted by Steviesims2059 View Post
    Well its so much better than ff 7 and ff 10
    Mind explaining a bit about why you think so?

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •