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Thread: People like FFXIII so much WHY GOD WHY? its the biggest betrayal ever to ff fans

  1. #26
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    They are all valid points for your dislike towards the game. But other people may actually have enjoyed those elements, everyone is different. Some people may have found the linear style easier to focus. Some people might have found the metamorphosis each character went through endearing. I played XIII and although it isn't the best Final Fantasy game in my opinion, I still enjoyed it, and have even replayed it. That's just my own view on it.

    However I still do not understand where you are getting the idea that people hail this game as being the best ever. I think in fact I'm the only one in this thread who has had a positive thing to say about Final Fantasy XIII.

  2. #27
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    I just can't think of any RPGs that I've played *because* of the gameplay. That's not to say that there aren't any RPGs with gameplay I enjoy (FFX-2 is a good example as Olde says, and the Star Ocean games would be others). But the idea that I would play them just for that gameplay, if I didn't like the stories and characters (which I did, very much so)...? JRPGs particularly are so full of story, and lengthy cut scenes, that you would have to be extremely patient and *really* into that gameplay!

    And again, what is this freedom in FF9, that you supposedly get? After Evil Forest, you get to roam the world map, but there are no locations to go to, other the one you have to, to get the game moving again. There are no side quests or side dungeons at this point, and though the game eventually opens out a bit when you get the Blue Narcissus, the apparent freedom is a false dawn, as the number of new locations (and particularly side quest locations for the purposes of this argument) that it allows you to access is very small. In FF7, you can go back to the Gold Saucer... and do what? Despite its apparent size, there is actually very little to do there - you don't have access to your own chocobos to raise and race at that point, Speed Square is a terrible mini-game with awful prizes, and the Battle Arena is only really feasible once you can win outright (otherwise the amount of GPS you get is a pittance). And that is highly improbably without a Ribbon, which I don't believe you have at that point.

    Let's not confuse 'Can you go anywhere else at all' with 'Can you go somewhere and achieve something meaningful, or at least experience new story, dialogue, see new sights etc'. FF7 doesn't have any secret dungeons (The Gelnika I suppose, but that is only 4 rooms big), and outside of the WEAPONS (which are obviously end game stuff), and the various Lvl 4 Limit Breaks and Ultimate Weapons (practically all of which are only available on Disc 2 at the earliest), there is very little side stuff to do, very few completely optional places to go, and again only later in the game. You *can* go to Fort Condor and Gold Saucer, but when there is basically nothing to at that point, its really tit for tat to say that constitutes a significant amount of extra freedom and content than FF13, isn't it?

    As I have always said (and this is the last time I am going to have this conversation), FF13 makes its design choices based on artistic decisions, using them to tell the story. And that doesn't sit well with people who just want to enjoy a game. I have never said that FF13 doesn't make some unfortunate choices in terms of being a user friendly and welcoming gaming experience - my point was always that most of these things were intentional design choices with a specific purpose. The game works as it was intended to, the question has always been (for me) over how wise those artistic decisions were, when most of them are severely limiting the gamer and his/her freedom. That's how it was supposed to work, but it doesn't make it any easier to play. Olde is right when he says that (at least until the latter chapters of the game), this is barely a game at all for much of its running time.

    The game is intentionally linear and then massively open to make an artistic point about a restrictive society versus a free one. It locks the important aspects of the team (ability to choose the leader and choose party composition) because it wants to wait until the team actually are acting and considering themselves a team in game (which doesn't happen until Chapter 9). The game eschews towns, side quests and traditional shops to show the idea that you are on the run, have a time bomb inside you that could kill you at any moment, so you have no time for dawdling with side quests. And the shops are to show the e-commerce nature of modern times, with the human face to face interaction being lost, and everyone being strangers to each other.

    The game purposefully holds back its depiction of the world, and the character's relations to others in society, so it can focus on the question of personal reactions to imminent death, and make choices on the fate of the world based on your fears for yourself and those close to you - again, because the game is implying that the modern information age culture encourages us to be strangers to each other, and not really know each other.By stripping that away, the game is able to get at the motivating factors that would really be concerning you in such a situation (your own life, and the lives of your family). When you open something out to say 'But we will be sacrificing the whole world', it becomes harder to take it seriously (indeed many western gamers have that exact reaction to Snow, in a 'Get Over Yourself' kind of way). By keeping the focus on the characters, the game is saying 'In this situation, your connection to the world would be entirely secondary to your immediate concerns of life and limb for you and yours - that is what you would base your decision to obey or fight on'.

    Worthy artistic goals, and it interested me greatly. Purely speaking for myself, I would have preferred some more visually visceral reminders of what fate was awaiting them (i.e I would have liked to see some physical changes based on the brand counting down to Ciethhood, and I obviously would have preferred the Cieth to look more genuinely horrifying and have them really sell the whole 'Its an endless hell of an existence' angle, because I feel the whole issue with the brands is allowed to drift into almost an academic discussion than the real, motivating force it is supposed to be. But still, I was really into the unusual way this game was working, what it was trying to say and how it was doing it. As someone who wonders about the direction society is going in, I guess I'm the kind of artsy armchair philosopher saddo that the game is aiming at

    But yes, obviously it was equally frustrating to those who just wanted to play a damn game! Who wanted to say to the designer 'Look pal, shove you art up your backside and let me PLAY!!!'

    And its not like I give the game a free pass on everything. The 'party must strike a pose the first time they change paradigms) is very odd, and there seems to be no good reason for it. It might not even be so bad, if the game wasn't still running, and you were still taking damage as it happened! And however laudable your artistic goals, making the player wait until 20+ hours in, to unlock the game's battle system to the point where you can actually start to enjoy it properly, is far too long. I don't personally agree that the game's system is a bad one, and if you look at the critic's reviews, most of them liked the system too, even if they didn't like the game as a whole. I just wish it opened up earlier, and gave you more fights like the one against Cid, that actually require to know how to play properly. Too much of the game can be completed by just setting 'Relentless Assault' and all out attacking.

    But I would also say that this is true of most games. Lots of trash mobs you beat in your sleep (you can actually automate combat 100% in some games and the they literally play themselves), and the occasional boss where you actually need to pay attention. I would also point out that 'Squad Leader dies - Game Over' is present in games ranging from Shin Megami Tensei to Mass Effect 2, and those games don't anywhere near the levels of shit from people howling that it shouldn't be in the game. It is also not alone in terms of 'You can only control one character, and the rest act on their own' as games like Persona 3 and again Mass Effect also operate this way. And regenerating health is and has been the standard for years now - games like Skyrim, Mass Effect etc employ it, and the latter even allows health regen in combat, not just after it.

    So in closing, I have always said that FF13 is not for everyone. They took a big risk making a game that was really quite anti-gamer for the most part, for the sake of an artistically minded story and method of storytelling. Particularly because this is not some niche title, but a big, hotly anticipated installment in a franchise. There are certain expectations that both the hardcore and mainstream gamers will want out of it, and a game which is deliberately artsy and waits until its latter stages to actually deliver purely as a game, as a gaming experience that is fun to play, is treading on very thin ice. I would still argue (and most of the critics would agree if you look them over) that it eventually does deliver, but it waits *far* too long, and front loads the game with an experience that many just don't have the patience or will to go through. I like it, but I'm 'A Man Who Likes This Sort Of Thing'. And I can absolutely understand why many others didn't.

    So there you have it. That's why I like (love is perhaps too strong a word, though I do love the sequel), this game. And if you don't agree, then that's fine. But its my opinion, and I'm entitled to it, just as you are to yours NG. I do feel that Square Enix was probably guilty of selling an arthouse film in the guide of a summer blockbuster, but at the end of the day, I enjoyed it.
    Last edited by Vrykolas; 09-28-2013 at 08:51 PM.

  3. #28
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    I personally feel that when square and enix fused and square was bought off, the series went downhill a little, and the story isn't as good as previous games.You call it art, i call it generic in style of characters, because they really are rehashes of previous games.

    The auto battle was a very big risk, but it isn't the auto battle which is the biggest issue, but rather the commands you issue to it.You can't tell your individual characters what spells to cast or when, leading to death a lot of times because your team doesn't always respond the way you want them to.Sometimes the auto battle doesn't hurt, but other times it really does because you can't fully control your characters or what they do, and there are a few enemies with really cheap insta kill moves.Most of the time, i found the game to be very easy because i am very experienced as it is.

    Another thing which aggravates me so much, is the drop rate of platinum bars.Why is that item that maxes your level out more common than platinum bars, when on wiki it says that its rarer? 1 out of 5 i get platinum and 4 out of 5 i get that catalyst item.

    I also want to comment on the music:I personally feel that leona lewis wasn't as good as nobuo uematsu.Her piece was a sort of pop beat music.Something to do with listening to a rainbow, and the other pieces weren't by her.The ones that weren't hers were better pieces in my opinion.There really isn't much else to say but to agree to disagree vrykolas, since we are both unable to come to an agreement.I personally feel this title is the weakest in the series.

  4. #29
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    You can't really say the series has gone downhill if you stop playing the games as soon as one comes out that you dislike. I hated XIII too, but once XIII-2 was cheap as chips (I got it for like 3) I thought 'why not'? It seemed unfair of me to judge the game before I'd even played it, and I was really pleasantly surprised. And FFXII was an amazing game too, I don't know if you've played it. So I really disagree that Final Fantasy has gone downhill since Square merged with Enix. I've seen nothing to indicate that. A bad game does not a bad series make

    Nobody is saying you shouldn't think it's the weakest in the series, I think so too. All that's being said really is that just because you think it's bad, doesn't mean people who think it's good are wrong or ignorant. I don't understand how others can like it either, but I don't have to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheechiibii View Post
    You can't really say the series has gone downhill if you stop playing the games as soon as one comes out that you dislike. I hated XIII too, but once XIII-2 was cheap as chips (I got it for like 3) I thought 'why not'? It seemed unfair of me to judge the game before I'd even played it, and I was really pleasantly surprised. And FFXII was an amazing game too, I don't know if you've played it. So I really disagree that Final Fantasy has gone downhill since Square merged with Enix. I've seen nothing to indicate that. A bad game does not a bad series make

    Nobody is saying you shouldn't think it's the weakest in the series, I think so too. All that's being said really is that just because you think it's bad, doesn't mean people who think it's good are wrong or ignorant. I don't understand how others can like it either, but I don't have to.
    I have been with the series the whole time, but i didn't play FFX-2 or FFXII and didn't comment on them.I did play FFXI though, but not much.

    It is the weakest in the series, and in my opinion the worse example for an ff game.I didn't stop either with FFX, and i disliked it.It took me many years to finaly get into it enough to care to beat it, and then i skipped XII, so i said:Hey i'm going to give the series another chance, so i bought FFXIII and said:I'l test my luck.I am tempted to buy XII, but i'm not sure about it.I also played revenant wings which is the ds remake, and i didn't like it.I think i have more than enough experience with the final fantasy series to have a good grasp of its history of production.We all may agree or disagree on some games, but you cannot deny my knowledge of the series.

  6. #31
    Grand Shriner Sheechiibii's Avatar
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    So...you think the series has gone downhill since the merger, yet you've only actually played one of the main games they've made since? I'm sorry but that just doesn't seem like something you can make an accurate judgement on, if you've played one out of four games. Also, Reverent Wings isn't the a remake of XII, it's the spin-off sequel, like DoC was for FFVII.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheechiibii View Post
    So...you think the series has gone downhill since the merger, yet you've only actually played one of the main games they've made since? I'm sorry but that just doesn't seem like something you can make an accurate judgement on, if you've played one out of four games. Also, Reverent Wings isn't the a remake of XII, it's the spin-off sequel, like DoC was for FFVII.
    5 games actually.

    FFX was after the merge.
    Revenant wings was too
    crisis core was as well.
    dissidia was as well
    Dungeon siege demo
    FFXIII-2 demo


    Oh shit i forgot a few others on the handhelds.

    Chrono trigger ds
    FF4 ds
    Etrian odyssey.

    I played lots of games.I haven't played the world ends with you yet.I'l try it out some time to see what its like.
    Last edited by Nostalgia gamer; 09-29-2013 at 12:24 PM.

  8. #33
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    The merger happened in 2003, X was released in 2001, well before the companied merged. X-2 was the first game released after, which you haven't played. I said 'main games' in the series. That would be X-2, XII, XIII and XIII-2 - the numbered titles. You have played one of four in the series since the merger, yet you say the series has gone downhill since? I stand by what I said, I don't think you can make an accurate claim that it's gone downhill when you've only played one of four games.
    Last edited by Sheechiibii; 09-29-2013 at 01:35 PM.

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    I won't link to it as it's very long so will feel like a double post. But Vrykolas' post sums the entire situation up perfectly. It is exactly the direction the creators wanted but whether it paid off or not is simply down to you. This open world style of previous games is nothing more than illusion. When you finally get out into the world map in FFVII, where can you go? Kalm and the Chocobo Ranch. Both are places you need to go anyway. Sure by disc 3 the entire world is open, but the exact same is true of chapter 11 in FFXIII. FFXIII in fact has more places for you to roam around. The only thing that is missing is NPC interaction, instead replaced by Cie'th stones.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMuta View Post
    Sure by disc 3 the entire world is open, but the exact same is true of chapter 11 in FFXIII. FFXIII in fact has more places for you to roam around. The only thing that is missing is NPC interaction, instead replaced by Cie'th stones.
    That's not true. Nearly all of the locations you go in the game you can never go back to.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheechiibii View Post
    That's not true. Nearly all of the locations you go in the game you can never go back to.
    You cannot return to the areas of Cocoon from the beginning for storyline reasons. Which reverts us back to the do you want gameplay over storyline question? Sure, they could have just ignored the whole fugitive thing and given you the ability to return and happily roam around Cocoon, but that would have been stupid. Then people wouldn't have moaned about the linearity, they would have moaned about the plot holes. The fact is Pulse is huge and their is plenty for you to do there. The sidequests may be different and not as immersive as previous titles' but they were sidequests nonetheless.

  12. #37
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    actually, i believe the decline started before the merge in 1997 with ff7.The series began to become mainstream.Back then it was still making good games, but they had more popularity than ever, and with a taste for it, wanted to spread out more to gain more people to buy, regardless if they have never played a game before.This especially with anime.The big oversized swords started in ff7, and anime hairstyles and the anime style stories and characters.

  13. #38
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    Okay, so say the series went downhill since FFVII, not since the merger if that's what you mean. I personally didn't like VII that much, VIII and X are my favourites in the series, then XII and IX with the rest coming after that. If all the games were like VII and previous, Final Fantasy would definitely not be my favourite game series.

    MrMuta: what storyline reasons? Because they're on the run? Because the authorities are searching for them? The exact same thing happened in FFX, and you could still return to all the place you'd been before, you could still go anywhere in the world you wanted, and a few extra places. It worked for X did it not? In fact, in XIII nobody knew what they looked like other than the officials, but in X everyone in Spira knew what Yuna and co looked like. It would not have been a plot hole to allow the player to go where they'd been before, not in the least, all they would have needed was a link to the airship or more of those gates at the end. There is pretty much nothing at all to do on pulse barring the stone missions, it's pretty to look at but that's about it.

  14. #39
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    Thing about the 90's is, there were still a lot of great games coming out still.I haven't played etrian odyssey fully yet, but i'm currently playing it and think its a good game, so maybe for all i know, the games i will like will be hand helds.
    I was a big fan of parasite eve as well when it came out, and thought it was a great game, but i think i derailed this topic long enough, and cannot keep going off topic.

    The topic is about FFXIII and why some people give it so much praise.It really puzzles me why it gets praise for its downfalls.

    So far, what i've gathered is that for some, these things i view as flaws, are good things to others, like auto attack and hope's character development and the slow process of developing characters and story, which also puzzles me.The story is pretty simple actually if you think about it.Its explaining in cutscenes how everyone got on the train at the beginning and what lead to those events up to them becoming a l'ecie.Most of those events are revealed in the first few chapters, and nothing too interesting happens after that.We never learn much about hopes mom or why we should care about her.Sera we have a bit more information, like she's lightning's sister, and snow was dating her and lightning at first doesn't approve because she becomes a crystal, and snow was the only person, so that ties together snow and lightning.It seems actually that snow gets quite a bit of action, as he seems to be the second character with most development early on, because you got the hope thing and lightning, and vanille doesn't reveal anything till really late, and sazh has a simple story that could have been interesting.

    The issue is of course, i can't begin to care about any of the characters.They don't seem to have much secondary characters.Each character sticks to its arch type personality:

    Hope the whining bitch who tries to be strong.
    Lightning the tough girl becomes a little more chatty later.
    Vanille is always likes elphie smiling
    Sazh is always happy and smiling
    Snow is mostly just overly confident and gets himself into trouble for being cocky.
    Fang is always the same.
    I personally feel most of the characters never really change, if not at all.I personally didn't feel the burden of being a l'cie believable at all, because vanille was happy the whole time, and was fang.We hardly know anything about them either, aside from their small backstory which is very short, so it doesn't give you nearly enough to care about them.To me, they all feel like cardboard cut outs.
    Last edited by Nostalgia gamer; 09-29-2013 at 03:10 PM.

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    NG: You just don't seem to be able to fathom that people have different tastes. The fact is whether you admit it or not, you have enjoyed some of the games post FFVI. You wouldn't join a forum just to discuss games pre-1994. You can hate the games all you want, but other people don't. FFVII gets a lot of hate now for some reason, but lots of people love it. And contrary to your beliefs most people hate FFXIII with a passion, but some people still love that too. Everything you are saying hasn't been said before and isn't going to dissuade those who did enjoy it into not enjoying it.

    Sheechiibii: Annoyingly enough FFX is the game I haven't played for the longest period, not having played it since it's release. It is next on the list of replays though. So therefore I cannot comment on the exploration or linearity aspects of the game, I can only comment on FFXIII. Due to the geography of Cocoon and lack of an airship (something that was quite annoying) it would simply be too awkward to go all the way back to places you've passed by. Imagine trying to get back to the big frozen lake (is it called Bresha?) from the Archylte Steppe. It would be a nightmare and would take absolutely hours, plus would be pointless anyway.

    The fact is most of the mistakes they made with FFXIII, which they even admitted to, they fixed for the sequel. More exploration. More NPC interaction. More classical sidequests (collect so much of X item etc.) So most of this is a moot point. Everyone knows FFXIII was not successful and did not live up to it's predecessors. Some people still enjoy it and some don't, that's just life. There has already been a much improved sequel and the trilogy will be completed soon by a game which I hope sees the improvements continue. People need to just accept it was a failure and move on. There is plenty in FF's future to be excited about.

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    FF7 is very overrated, but its not a bad game.It is enjoyable.There are some who exaggerate the shortcomings and others who put it on a pedestal.FF7 gets a lot of hate because of the rabid fanbase and it is put on a pedestal for things that were done in some previous games, while ignoring the holes in the execution, such as how sephiroth became a villain, and because people's favorite characters:Sephiroth and cloud are also over marketed and overrated as they are unjustly put on a pedestal above all other ff games.FFXIII is rightly criticized, but i wonder how much of the FFXIII-2 things i heard are true.I mean i know there are quick time events, because i played the demo, but i heard you had to buy the dlc to see the ending, which is obserd

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    The fact is FFVII probably is overrated, but it is still a great game. It means so much to many people because it was their first RPG, it introduced them to that genre, forever changing their outlook on gaming. Obviously you are not one of them so you don't understand the hype as much. Which is fair enough. But you're saying things like it's not explained how Sephiroth became a villain? Yes it is. In fact it is almost overly explained in an hour long flashback sequence.

    As for Sephiroth and Cloud being over marketed, well you're not going to like the answer to that one. It's because they're popular. They are really popular. Final Fantasy is still quite a niche franchise, but most average gamers know who Cloud and/or Sephiroth is. Ask them about Terra, Locke, Bartz, Cecil etc. they won't have a clue. I can understand why you don't like FFVII or FFXIII. But if you don't understand why myself and others do, well, there isn't much I can say. The facts and opinions are all out there. You either get it or you don't.

  18. #43
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    I disagree with saying "they fixed it in the sequel" as if that makes the original game better. I loved XIII-2, I thought it was a great game, it expanded the world, the characters were interesting and made me like them, the story was good and the gameplay was sweet, and there were so many options. Did it make me like XIII any more than I did before? Not one bit, not even slightly. Fixing things in a sequel makes the sequel good, but it does nothing to make the first game any better than it was before. All it's faults still exist, whether they are in the sequel or not.

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    I'm not saying it makes the original any better at all. As I have repeatedly said (but everyone seems unable to see) most people don't like FFXIII. It was a massive flop and is closer to being universally hated than any other Final Fantasy title. However NG is saying things like how the series is getting worse and worse since the merger, which I fully disagree with. One blip is not a deterioration. FFXIII wasn't good. But FFXIII-2 was. So my point is that people should be reassured that SE still know how to make a great game. I'm not saying that the sequel being good makes it's predecessor good. I'm saying the fact that XIII-2 was good shows that the errors made in XIII were a one off.

  20. #45
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    Sorry, I thought when you said "this is a moot point" that you were talking about the criticism XIII gets. That's exactly what I was saying earlier in the thread, that XIII might not be a good game, but there are others that are great, and one bad game doesn't make a bad series.

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    That's fine. No I just mean it's almost accepted as fact now that FFXIII wasn't good, or at least not as good as games that came before it. But considering they've made great games since, there is no reason to believe this is the end for Final Fantasy.

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    Sheechiibii:
    You are not on the run in FFX - for most of the game you are on the Pilgrimage and are actually considered honored visitors and heroes. There is a brief time when you are declared enemies by Seymour, but that passes very quickly. Also, not all lands attribute any authority to Bevelle and the Church of Yevon (like the Al-Bhed), so they could care less that you are enemies of that state.

    And besides, in FF10 you aren't infected with a life threatening virus (so to speak) that is going to kill you unless you act. They don't have time to be spending on side stuff, because their brands could progress at any moment. And with serah and Dajh captured, they are hardly free to go messing about, are they? Plus, Cocoon is vastly more technologically advanced than Spira (which is a purposefully non tech reliant society), and the Sanctum is a much more organized and pervasive military force than Yevon. The Sanctum have authority over *all* of Cocoon, unlike Yevon which has a smaller sphere of inluence over Spira, and their cutting edge technology and resources means that the FF13's party's faces and details can be sent to every region and force instantly. This therefore limits and constricts the FF13's party's movements an infinite amount more than the FFx party had to contend with. Add in that the public actively support hunting down L'Cie and just want a quiet life by making sure they get captured.

    So we can see why it makes no sense to put in side missions in the main story while they are on Cocoon. When they reach Pulse, the pressure is off slightly and the team have both grown together and come to accept that they might die (and indeed very likely *will* die). By then, they've resolved to live their lives as best they can and not be constantly fretting, so they're willing to go along with Snow's request to help the Cieth on Pulse.

    There is a reason for why FF13 works as it does. You may not like it (and you're certainly not alone in that), but they didn't make it this way 'just because'. The guys at Square Enix didn't sit round a table and say 'Hey guys, check this idea - we won't put in any side quests until 25+ hours in... for no reason! How about that for an idea?!' Because anyone saying it like that would be scissor kicked in half by his superiors. The writer clearly came up with his vision and sold them on the various mechanics to make that vision happen. Similarly he didn't say 'I've got a great idea - we won't let them pick their party members, or choose who to play as until the last chapters of the game. Am I brilliant or what?!'

    Because that would be like someone pitching a FPS and saying 'Yeah, we're not going to let them swap weapons or reload for the first 30 hours - we think it'll be a real popular move...' You'd never get out of the room alive, after a pitch like that.

    It happened this way because the guy had a vision of what he wanted to do, and a specific way of telling that story. And in risk averse times, I applaud him for at least trying something different. It doesn't make that game any more user friendly, and it pissed a lot of people off who were expecting a different experience than they got. But I'm always on the lookout for something out of the ordinary, and this certainly wasn't the way I thought a new FF game would be made. I mean, I liked it anyway, but the 'I can't believe Square actually agreed to let him do it like this' factor, was a source of unexpected pleasure to me.

    Its not for everyone, and that's understandable. But some people do like it (and hey, the Japs loved it too, so maybe I should change my name to Vrykolas-san...)
    Last edited by Vrykolas; 09-29-2013 at 09:02 PM.

  23. #48
    RIP FFShrine: 2001-2010 Olde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrykolas View Post
    There is a reason for why FF13 works as it does. You may not like it (and you're certainly not alone in that), but they didn't make it this way 'just because'. The guys at Square Enix didn't sit round a table and say 'Hey guys, check this idea - we won't put in any side quests until 25+ hours in... for no reason! How about that for an idea?!' Because anyone saying it like that would be scissor kicked in half by his superiors. The writer clearly came up with his vision and sold them on the various mechanics to make that vision happen. Similarly he didn't say 'I've got a great idea - we won't let them pick their party members, or choose who to play as until the last chapters of the game. Am I brilliant or what?!'
    You seem to be saying that the artistic vision came first, which was followed by the gameplay/process, but I have my doubts. I remember FFXII receiving criticism for its MMO style of open-world exploration, as the player is able to backtrack anywhere after a relatively short time. It also had a ton of side quests, and I'm not saying they were great, but there were a ton of them. This was somewhat similar to FFX-2, the majority of which consisted in side content. So I think that director Toriyama and producer Kitase really took to heart the criticism that was aimed at the previous installments' superfluity of side content. For that reason, they streamlined the plot and gameplay, eliminated towns and shops, and directed it as an escape story. It was probably relatively linear in concept from the start. So I have to disagree with you when you say that nobody pitched this as a game that was intended to be as narrow as it was.

    Now, you're talking about the intensely restrictive aspects, and of course, the way you put it nobody would accept these drawbacks. But you're confusing the issue: a streamlined, linear, narrative-driven story is not the same thing as one in which the side quests don't occur for 25+ hours (and really, side quests? There's only one, monster hunting, because although there are multiple hunts, the quests are all identical: go here and kill the monsters). You can have a game that tells a story in a streamlined way but that also makes the player feel like they're in control.

    And this speaks to why gameplay is so important to me: the player should feel like he or she has some reason to be there. If I can beat the game while watching a TV show, with the controller in my hands as I repeatedly tap the X button and hold the analog stick forward, then there's no reason for me to be there. I might as well watch the game beat the enemies for me. Because the combat and the game map are the places where the player feels in control of the character and the story. If the only way to go is forward, then the player doesn't have any input, and I might as well not be there. The same thing goes for combat. If the only thing to do in combat is tap the X button, I might as well not be there.

    It's the exact same thing with the story. If 80% of the game is having the characters aimlessly wander around hallways and talk about the same things over and over again, that doesn't invest the player with the story. Now, the game can be open-world or linear-as-hell and still captivate the player, and I'm not saying that linear = bad. Most stories are told in a linear order. But in my opinion FF13 really doesn't do anything for investing the player in what's going on, as it throws them into a world without any background or context and eliminates any free will or choice that the player might want to exercise. The linearity crosses the line from "focused" to "crippling." You're literally running down a hallway to watch the next cutscene to get to the next hallway to get to the next cutscene ad infinitum. And if that's all there is, why not just make it a movie? Vrykolas, even with all your defense that this is an artistic creation and that linearity is the best way to achieve its intended aim, even you have to admit that the linearity serves only for its detriment. You can have an exciting, enjoyable chase plot, and I'm not saying that FF13 couldn't ever work. It definitely could have been much better, and it definitely had potential. But the execution kills it. The linearity in conception isn't the problem, it's the execution.

    I couldn't finish the game; I found it unbearable. I did, however, watch the rest of the game's cutscenes on YouTube, which led me to the conclusion that it works much better as a movie than as a game. It really should have been a movie; I know it's too long, and Final Fantasy movies fail as a rule, but that's actually this story's ideal medium. And they could have released it in installments, or put it under a different title than Final Fantasy. But they knew that the video game market is where the big bucks are, so they made it a video game. And this is what happens when you interrupt a movie with segments where you push the characters forward: not a good game.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1982_tarheels View Post
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    Oh, now i get it...

    Your Posts aren't meant to be ironic... You actually think you're funny....
    I fucking hate FFShrine.

  24. #49
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    FF7 is very overrated, but this topic is about FFXIII, so i won't answer to that.What i will say, is that FFXIII,although that the graphics look good, you can't really interact with the world, so immersion is non existent.You might as well have an empty cube.Sure it looks pretty and the enemies are well designed, but i have a feeling that the graphics and characters graphics came before the story.

  25. #50
    Grand Shriner Sheechiibii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrykolas View Post
    Sheechiibii:
    You are not on the run in FFX - for most of the game you are on the Pilgrimage and are actually considered honored visitors and heroes. There is a brief time when you are declared enemies by Seymour, but that passes very quickly. Also, not all lands attribute any authority to Bevelle and the Church of Yevon (like the Al-Bhed), so they could care less that you are enemies of that state.

    And besides, in FF10 you aren't infected with a life threatening virus (so to speak) that is going to kill you unless you act. They don't have time to be spending on side stuff, because their brands could progress at any moment. And with serah and Dajh captured, they are hardly free to go messing about, are they? Plus, Cocoon is vastly more technologically advanced than Spira (which is a purposefully non tech reliant society), and the Sanctum is a much more organized and pervasive military force than Yevon. The Sanctum have authority over *all* of Cocoon, unlike Yevon which has a smaller sphere of inluence over Spira, and their cutting edge technology and resources means that the FF13's party's faces and details can be sent to every region and force instantly. This therefore limits and constricts the FF13's party's movements an infinite amount more than the FFx party had to contend with. Add in that the public actively support hunting down L'Cie and just want a quiet life by making sure they get captured.

    So we can see why it makes no sense to put in side missions in the main story while they are on Cocoon. When they reach Pulse, the pressure is off slightly and the team have both grown together and come to accept that they might die (and indeed very likely *will* die). By then, they've resolved to live their lives as best they can and not be constantly fretting, so they're willing to go along with Snow's request to help the Cieth on Pulse.
    After the capture in Bevelle you're an enemy for the rest of the game. You can still go pretty much anywhere, it just means fighting monks etc. You say they don't have time to do any side stuff, but if that was truely the case then the cieth stones wouldn't be included either. There's either a reason for no side missions or there isn't. I wasn't saying there should be side missions while you're on cocoon, I said you should have had the freedom to go back to places you'd been before and discover new things, like you can do in pretty much every other game in this series. Yevon was not a smaller influence on Spira, they were in complete control. The only place they weren't in control was in the desert, which gets completely destroyed by these people you seem to be trying to say don't have the technology to be a threat. So either you can go places that are under the control of Yevon, or you can hang around in the desert or other completely deserted places.

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