Some of my unfinished illustrations... O_o

[tinyjeans]

I agree that there is a stiffness to the drawings. However, reading that the first one is meant to be coloUred changes things a bit, for that is the least desiralbe of the three for me. Although still stiff, I really like the shading of the third piece on what looks like grass the figure is sitting on. It's very nice. I do feel you need a little work on drawing hands, but I know hands are generally one of the more difficult things to draw. Overall, the shading is nice and the woman (besides the hair which I'm just not a fan of) is very well done. Good stuff.

[Sophiris]

I'm not here to continue the debate from the last thread. That's on that thread. I just happened to run onto this thread as I was searching to see what kinds of artists are fans of the forums. Kind of interesting to see all the hidden talent on the site.

That's good that you are doing something to improve your work.

Studying the human body closely by drawing real people will help build your skill. You will gain a greater knowledge of muscles and bones and how they interact when the body is in different positions. You can also understand real lighting and shadow tones on the skin better by looking at real models.

Try holding your pencil like you would a large eraser in front of you to draw your lines and that will allow your lines to flow more smoothly as well so your characters won't look as stiff. This works great when drawing muscle definition as well. If you use the HB to 4B pencils like you say and some paper with a little grit to it, the soft graphite should just roll off onto the paper for a smooth line.

[Hynad]

I'm not here to continue the debate from the last thread. That's on that thread. I just happened to run onto this thread as I was searching to see what kinds of artists are fans of the forums. Kind of interesting to see all the hidden talent on the site.

That's good that you are doing something to improve your work.

Studying the human body closely by drawing real people will help build your skill. You will gain a greater knowledge of muscles and bones and how they interact when the body is in different positions. You can also understand real lighting and shadow tones on the skin better by looking at real models.

Try holding your pencil like you would a large eraser in front of you to draw your lines and that will allow your lines to flow more smoothly as well so your characters won't look as stiff. This works great when drawing muscle definition as well. If you use the HB to 4B pencils like you say and some paper with a little grit to it, the soft graphite should just roll off onto the paper for a smooth line.

WTF is that crap? Go tell your crap to children who never took art class.

You're like trying to explain to me the most basic of stuff, things I've known and applied since the age of 4. And nothing in there has to do with what I need to work on.
Just don't post any reply to me ever again. You really proved there that you're just full of crap... again.

[Sophiris]

If it is such basic stuff then why don't you do it in your drawings? Knowing something and being able to execute something are two different things. Your characters wouldn't look like stiff dummies if you had mastered these basic principles. Drawing a bunch of grass and leaves to fill space on the first picture doesn't take away from the stiffness of the characters.

The girl coming out of the ocean/water on the third picture really needs a lot of work as well. Nudity in a drawing doesn't always equal a good drawing, especially if you haven't mastered the flow of the shape. If you ever expect to do illustration for a living, you are really going to have to get this.

To be as blunt and honest as possible, you know as well as I do that no studio of any sort is going to pay a salary or top dollar for anything that you have drawn above. Also, I see that you have two conflicting styles as well. Instead of trying to do a more realistic style and an anime style, just focus on one and work at it. I have never seen any artist who can do both equally well. Every artist lacks in either one or the other.

This is constructive criticism whether you want to accept it or not. Instead of getting mad when someone tells you the truth, thank them and get to work or you are going to end up growing old, working a dead-end job, and making excuses and complaining your life away as to why you never made anything of yourself.

[Hynad]

I'm not mad at you. I laugh at your assumptions and ignorance.

I get paid pretty well for the work I do.


Don't talk about something you know nothing about. It's not like you have mentioned that you were working in that field.


It would be interesting to see if you can draw anything at all. Then I'd come at you and tell you you can't hold your pencil correctly... even though I never saw how you actually work.

BTW, these pics are quite old. The oldest being 7 years old, and the youngest being a bit more than a year old.

Now, to keep on pointing at you total ignorance and lack of judgement, there are studios who pay good money for my stuff (even if they are no Square-Enix, DC Comics or whatever other mega-company).


Go share your ignorance with someone else.

[discodan]

ehh, i think sophiris was just trying to be helpful, i dont think there was anything malicious in the post above. That said, i wish i had half the artistic talent you do. I can photoshop my way around premade objects add elements from the web and manipulate the hell out of them. I create cd covers and club flyers for local folks, but i wish i could create something original like your drawing.

Peaceinthemiddleast!

[J. Peterman]

I LIKE SECOND ONE BEST

A++ WILL BUY FROM AGAIN

[Sophiris]

Hynad,

I have worked in the field of art for some time now just not for someone else. If you are interested in giving some criticism about my work, I am all ears.

I am trying to get a picture uploaded here you so can see what I mean about the shading and form but it says that it is too big even though I have sized it below the 100 KB limit. Do you know anything about this? It seems as though the function doesn't work at all since it tells me I have exceeded the space limit by something like 86.5 KB when that is the exact file size to begin with. It is also less than the 800 x 600 dimensions as well.

---

If anybody has a idea how to attach a picture with the attachment function please let me know.

Thanks.

[Hynad]

I don't think there's much I'll get from you when it comes to shading. Not to be arrogant or anything, but shading is my strenght, and every art teachers I had or people in the field I've met have always been impressed with it, so I don't think you can say much about it. These pics I posted are done with HB+ pencils. It's not like I'll do much pro art using these mediums (I use them, but the end result is done with ink so the pencil work disappear in the process. I'm working with any kind of mediums actually. These pics weren't made as professional projects. In one I was studying the shading of clouds, and some more complex lighting, in the first one (the oldest of the 3) I was just doing it to experiment with computer coloring (I use Painter X), the second one is the most recent and it's a personal demand from one of my friend. So I don't know why you judge this work from this "suposed to be pro" angle. It's pretty stupid to see how you told me at first that it was too stiff... then I admit it's something I'm working on right now, then you come back to tell me why you think they are stiff like this, as if you had to add something to put shit and pretend you know something I don't. The reason you mentioned was off (pretty laughable, to be honest), and that's why I didn't appreciate how you came up with your rookie advice. I know all too well what is to be improved in my pics and admitted it (I have more qualified people than you around me to tell me, trust me).
Now if you want to explain to someone how to hold a pencil, go do so with a 3 years old kid (the age I actually started drawing one bit seriously).

As for your picture, just go create yourself an account on [Hidden link. Register to see links.] and upload it there. After that, just put the direct link to the pic in one of your post.

As for judging your work, don't worry, I'll do so, and will show you what a constructive advice really is.



Also, I'm going to post a batch of finished work from 2007 soon.

[Sophiris]

Here's a mixed medium picture/painting done with HB pencils, generic pastels, and Winsor and Newton gouache. This one was done in about 13 hours. It is simple but it focuses on a green theme which was the the chosen color for the wedding. The shading flows real well over the bride and most of the other stuff like the dress and objects. The form of the bride was measured to scale as well.



My thoughts after finishing the piece were that a little more shadow behind the bride could have been done a little better to smooth out the definite pencil line where the arm reaches down to touch the apple. I would have liked to make the overall color scheme a little darker as well so some of the features on the flowers and such would stand out better. I didn't have enough time to paint the flowers in the second vase and the apple wasn't colored perfectly so it looks a little like a striped pool ball too (A most regrettable thing). Most of the objects used in the picture are just various things I saw in a local craft store (I hate crafts but they work with the picture pretty well). Unfortunately, time constraints with the clients killed some of the creative process with this piece because they needed it the day before.

Anyway, Let me know what you think.

[Hynad]

I cannot possibly give you much praise if all you do is copy a picture or photoshop it.

[Sophiris]

Hynad,
I had a feeling that you would make some sort of comment like that. It was wise of me to post a piece of art that I had a few pictures of during the development stages. Here is a copy of the original HB pencil sketch.



This is a perfect example in comparison to your drawings of what I mean when I say that you do not understand shading and flow techniques. Do you even know what negative space is and how to apply it to your art?

You have said that you know so much about art and you work around all these professionals. If that is the case why do they not give you an honest critique of your work?

[Sophiris]

It looks like I linked to the thumbnail. Here is a larger version.

[Hynad]

That's exactly what I meant. You work from an existing picture. If I do that, I can come up with real life quality stuff. What you don't seem to understand is that anybody can do that. Take a picture and work from there.

Try to do this kind of work by creating something ENTIRELY from your imagination.

The amount of knowledge and techniques required to do so is way beyond what you're showing so far.

Applying shading from an image you create in your head, and "applying" shading by only copying it from an existing image are 2 different things.

You totally fail as an imaginative artist there.

And I'm still not convinced these pics are not photoshoped. You'll have to post a bigger picture.

[Sophiris]

The work is original but like I said before, the items exist in reality and can be found at a local craft shop. The bride drawing was done through head, shoulder, waist, height, and other measurements coupled with a number of photos provided by the client.

I don't think that you can draw anything imaginative and especially shade and draw flow correctly unless you can understand what already exists.

If you think that anybody can draw something with realistic proportions, flow, and shading which includes yourself, please show everyone here on this thread that you can draw something realistically using any picture you want for reference.

I have spent a lot of time in a studio drawing model after model trying to gain in skill what people with 20-40 years experience have on me and I will tell you the fact that "not anyone can draw like that as you claim." I have seen young person after young person, college student after college student come into these classes thinking that they were the "real-deal artist" only to leave disappointed at the end of the semester because they never invested the time to master the skills of shading, and flow. I have a long way to go myself as far as drawing and painting is concerned to find myself on the same level as some of the artists I interact with in class who have been at it for a lot longer than myself. I get compliments on my work every now and then from some of these people but you had better know that I have to work my *ss of for them. Nobody in such a setting is going to compliment crap and I have been told straight up numerous times what I have needed to work on over the years.

That said, if you think that every picture that looks better than yours is photoshop then you probably think that Da Vinci, Michelangelo, and everyone else for that matter used it as well. Why don't you prove to everyone here on this thread that you can do something like that with such a program? I am really only a novice with any photo-editing software since I only have some stuff that came with my digital camera that allows me to stitch stuff together to create panoramas and do some simple resizing, etc. but I haven't seen any pictures to date that are colored very realistically with such software.

I have a friend who has done digital stuff on the side who told me about something called a WACOM board (I hope I spelled this right) that he has used with some sort of digital art program but he said it surely doesn't replace an artist's hand. In fact he has stated that, "It allows the amatuer to hide frequent mistakes that a real artist would never make.

[MossY]

As for judging your work, don't worry, I'll do so, and will show you what a constructive advice really is.

I cannot possibly give you much praise if all you do is copy a picture or photoshop it.

I had not realised constructive criticism was analogous with slander.

[Mike_w]

I am here to take constuctive criticism without going crazy.

[Hynad]

Hey Sophiris, why don't you give me this bigger pic I've been asking for?


As for showing you something looking realistic like this picture above, give me some time and I'll create one from scratch. Doing like you and using pictures as reference. I don't know if I'll use colors or not, but you'll see the technique behind it and probably shut your trap.

The thing here is that you're doing the mistake of calling what you do art, and everything that doesn't look nearly as realistic as sub-par. This is completely ridiculous. A complete artist can work with different styles which in the end helps to give different moods and flow to the pieces. The ultimate goal of an art piece is to express an emotion (or multiple emotions) or an aesthetic achievement. Merely recopying pictures like you do don't require much skills, no mather how you wish to convince yourself. I've been able to do that since high school. Try to draw a human model just by thinking about it, without the use of any outside references and you might get an idea of what I am talking about.


Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a picture to draw so I can shut your arrogant trap.

[Mike_w]

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a picture to draw so I can shut your arrogant trap.

This is priceless.

I may even screenshot this and frame it.

[MossY]

That Mona Lisa thing, pretty rubbish if you ask me. I mean, what the fuck Da Vinci? USING MODELS, GARFGAHAGHH!

[Mike_w]

That Mona Lisa thing, pretty rubbish if you ask me. I mean, what the fuck Da Vinci? USING MODELS, GARFGAHAGHH!

It's better than my drawings. It's shopped.

[MossY]

IMMA STICK MY FIST IN SOME MONET PAINTINGS BECAUSE HE USED REAL LIFE INSPIRATION LOL.

[Hynad]

I said it could be shopped.

If not, I said it was made using pictures. Which he admited it is. He tries to tell me I know nothing about art, and I tell him I don't use the same approach as him. I work using my knowledge of the human body, using my head to comprehend how every pieces fit together so I can come up with something that's taken entirely in my head(unlike him). He works using pictures and merely copy them. That's not the same approach. Some use models, some study the human anatomy and develop their knowledge about it. Knowing how it works allow you to do like Jim Lee, Burne Hogarth or Yoshitaka Amano. They don't use models to create their pieces (although they certainly did in their early days before getting a firm grasp of how it works in its entirety, in their art classes). They have studied anatomy thouroughly and their pics are authentic. Heck, he might not be pro, but our own NAMOR, certainly a good artist by judging his pieces in the general Discussion forums (in the thread NAMOR INSPIRED) shows that he can draw a convincing art piece using his knowledge alone (the piece with the guy pointing a gun at us from inside his car comes to mind).

Sophiris came in this thread to stir shit with me saying I'm not good because the 3 unfinished pics there weren't made using outside references like his.

That's complete nonsense.


BTW Sophiris, what kind of HB pencil would give this sort of black? Charcoal will be this black, but HB pencils? Oh... of course.
You inked this part already, right?

It is also bizarre for an artist to completely do his shadings during the sketch phase when the piece is expected to be completed using water colors like gouache.

[MossY]

He didn't say you weren't good, he said you could be better. He acknowledged that there was acres of room for improvement in his own work also, so I hardly see it as a slur against you. Not being a particularly talented artist or even well cultured within the field, both of your pieces look excellent to me. Sophoris' picture is better, in my humble opinion, but you have stated that what you have posted is nowhere near your best work, Hynad, and I have absolutely no reason to think that you are lying. Hell, if this is just some of your more leisurely sketches, I cannot wait until you get some of your finer pieces up and that is sincere.

Where my problem is, however, is that you post in that art section and you must therefore accept that, in addition to the praise that you have deservedly garnered, there will also be criticism and I think we all hope that said criticism is of the constructive variety. I really don't see how Sophoris' criticisms haven't been constructive and, to me, it is somewhat disingenuous to turn his criticisms into him merely attempting to stir shit. Maybe you are privy to some information that I am not, a reason perhaps why Sophiris would criticise you just for the sake of it, but superficially it seems as if you have thrown a bit of a tantrum.

You have resorted to name calling and ad hominem long before Sophoris and you have even insinuated that his art requires less talent than your own, sort of the same thing inversed that started this whole debacle in the first place. And, whilst calling for bigger prints may be a legitimate query on your part, your absolute insistence on seeing them in order to judge the authenticity of Sophiris' work seems a little objectionable. If it helps you make a better determination, then of course that is valuable, but if no larger prints exist then, through no fault of his own, Sophiris is made to look a fraud.

[Hynad]

I've seen a lot of art pieces to know when it can be debatable if a piece of artwork is authentic or not. That's why I want him to post a bigger size one.
My problem with him so far is that I acknoledge one of my weakpoint, and admitted I was currently working on it. But he came back to me stating that my shading was not good and that people wouldn't hire me because (it would seem) the shading in my pieces there aren't photo-realistic (as if that's what I was trying to achieve in the first place...). He came in here pretending to know better than me, and started shooting his bullshit about shadings and flow. He did the same kind of thing in an other thread. He assumed I had never held an Ultimania book in my hand, which is false. But he still assumed it.

Basically, what he does with me so far is assume to be better than me in stuff he have no ideas if I have or not some knowledge about.

I took his first constructive criticism seriously and admitted I had to work on the stiffness of my characters. But then he added to it as if the stiffness was due to some kind of lack of basic knowledge. That's completely wrong but he insisted on it. You can now see me arguing that the stiffness of my pics is due to the way I come up with my pics: I try to use as less real world references as possible, and use my own understanding of how things look like.

I don't pretend it's perfect, and have been pretty clear from the start. As I said, I am currently studying and hopefully perfecting my understanding of dynamic anatomy, so I can give a more "living" feel to my work. This is to further improve the way I work: with as less outside references as possible.

When I was working with the kind of references that Sophiris is using, I would always feel the work I've achieved was not entirely mine and I always hated that. But I assure you I can do the same as he can, and that this reaction of mine towards him, contrary to what he seems to believe, isn't due to jealousy.
It is a direct reaction to the arrogant way he assumed to know how I work, and how he tried to explain to me how to literally "hold a pencil", when I've been studying art my whole life.

Any respectable artist can come up with some picture references and do just the same as he does. To me, it only shows his own weaknesses when it comes to anatomic knowledge.

But, if I must be impartial here, then I'll say that the color application is impressive. If the pic is authentic, that is.