Stupid yabos people?
When people like things a lot it's quite a put-off, especially to hear a shitload of people raving on and on about one thing and just that one thing. He's pretty much just sick of hearing it i bet, which is a legitimate thing to think. Pretty much the reason I can't stand FPSes.
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What irritates me is when people say RPG is supposed to be a story and then defend Final Fantasy 13's story. It was poorly paced, and the environments were beautiful but dead. I'm sorry, mad people gave their reasons and you chose to ignore the few that weren't like "this game is linear" or "this battle system sucks." In the end, it's a game that takes 11 chapters to pick up, and overall, even if it's battle system was a godsend, it wouldn't be able to carry the makeshift world on it's back to success sorry.You know that one of the main reason why there are many hates for the game is because people accuse of it's linear style besides likes and dislikes about the battle system. I think people are being a bit too comparing with the game. I mean, it's an RPG... It's suppose to be a story. We all play for the sole purpose of knowing the story.
What irritates me is that half of the world doesn't even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.
It shouldn't get you down at all. I love FF7, but I don't like it when idiots defend my game. Similarly, I love Pokemon, and when some idiot froths at my foot about it, I'm going to be like...stop frothing at my fucking foot, the game isn't that amazing. Granted I played it for 80 hours in the last two weeks, but really...stop.The negativity gets me down sometimes because I know that the very people who are flaming the fanboys/girls actually like the game for what it was- a game, nothing more, nothing less. LOL, they probably apprieciate it more than the fanatics do! But unlike the stupid yabos people like Revan and NeoZhan know where to draw the line.
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Hey I know people that love FF13's story, they just didn't like the gameplay very much at all due to difficulty. It's still all up to personal preference anyway...
What I meant was "Unlike the stupid yabos, people like Revan and NeoZhan know where to draw the line."....I forgot the comma- my major bad.
I'm good friends with Revan and had no intention of insulting him- or NeoZhan for that matter.
You know, that was very well said. Couldn't have put it better. However just because the idiot is frothing at your feet over it doesn't mean you should start disliking the game, right?It shouldn't get you down at all. I love FF7, but I don't like it when idiots defend my game. Similarly, I love Pokemon, and when some idiot froths at my foot about it, I'm going to be like...stop frothing at my fucking foot, the game isn't that amazing. Granted I played it for 80 hours in the last two weeks, but really...stop.
Animam sacrificare necesse est?
Galaroval:
Whilst its nice to see someone else who is getting some enjoyment out of present day FF (I think 12 and 13 are the best installments in a long, long, long time), does it really do the series any good if people don't speak their mind about the games?
I mean, you were saying before that because the site is at least in name, a Final Fantasy site, we should really all be being positive about the series. Now again, for me that's not really a problem, as I've liked the recent games. But surely, people should be allowed to air their views if they don't like them?
The lack of truly positive rebuttals to the general feeling of disatisfaction, speaks to FF13's failure to recapture the series' core supporters (at least not en masse anyway). I liked the game, but did I *love* it... Not really, no. And whilst I am probably one of the more outspoken supporters of the modern installments, I can't say that FF13 has me fired up and ready to go out there and really champion the series to people.
Its hard to be an activist for a series, when the best you can say is 'Its pretty good, and better than people say'. I believe that statement to be true about FF13, but I'm going to say that people who don't play it are missing out on a life changingly amazing gaming experience. Its a decent JRPG, a good Final Fantasy title, but I think any reasonably objective fan would have to concede, it could have been much better.
I think FF13 is perhaps being treated slightly unfairly, but I think FF12 was treated far worse - in that I think FF12 is a genuinely great game, that is criminally undervalued. 13 is good, but its no 7 or 12.
This is just a really awkward time for Final Fantasy. But we can't manufacture victories that don't exist - the fact is, if the series wants to be considered great again, it has to earn it. If they do come up with a great game, then series fans have to do their part and make sensible cases for why people should check it out.
But if the games aren't good enough for that, we should be able to admit that, but still flag up what we think SE are doing right. Because contrary to what a lot of people are saying, I think SE is still producing good games - it just isn't producing many great games at the moment.
QFT! Kudos for that buddy!Originally Posted by Vrykolas
V for Valhalla
His point is when it goes too far and is too much in excess as opposed to people just generally speaking good about it.Whilst its nice to see someone else who is getting some enjoyment out of present day FF (I think 12 and 13 are the best installments in a long, long, long time), does it really do the series any good if people don't speak their mind about the games?
I was referring specificially to when he said on Page 5 of this thread:
'Pure negativity gets annoying after a while. This is a forum for Final Fantasy so there should be a general liking for the titles. I'm not saying that it is necessary to love every single one, but the criticism towards certain select games is very negative. If I were trying to create something, reading that sort of criticism would crush me flat.'
Its that 'there should be a general liking for the titles' bit that particularly gets me. I don't want the site to be 'For Final Fantasy fans only - everyone else can go somewhere else'. That's obviously exaggerating and misrepresenting what he said, but these things can be a slippery slope.
If people are just insulting the games and have weak arguments, then they should be called on it. But I think the site should be willing to hear from people who may not even like any of the titles, as long as they make good cases for what they say, and aren't just being willfully disruptive to push people's buttons etc.
Basically, I'm just saying that whilst some people are having a go for the sake of it, others are making good points and should be heard. Because like I say, even though I like Ff12 and 13, I think the series is very far from being in robust health, at least in terms of perception of the series, popularity, core support etc.
I don't think we should be retreating to a 'let's just discuss the good points, because that's less stressful' standpoint. I think fans owe it to themselves and the series to always try and keep an honest view about where the series actually stands, at any given time.
The way I see it, Square Enix is a corporation that exists for making capital by putting out installments in the gaming industry. That’s all. They use the tropes and clichés of japanese anime, JRPGs, etc. to appeal to fans of the genre. What’s interesting to me is that I don’t see them as “creating” in the same sense that you do. Maybe that’s just because I’m a cynical bastard, but to me, it’s the means to an end (Although I do believe that the company once genuinely wanted to put out great games without consideration of profit).
According to Wikipedia, “As of May 2010, the game shipped 5.5 million copies worldwide, becoming the fastest-selling title in the history of the series.” And from the demo of FFXIII-2 at E3 2011, it looks like they’re just repeating their mistake, but in fact trying to capitalize even more on their previous successes by bringing moogles in. Think about it. I think that if anything, Square-Enix needs to be woken up from their delusion of what they think qualifies as a good game, just because they hold the rights to the FF franchise. And as long as we, the gamers, keep buying their material and then get frustrated when people call for better quality games, the quality of games will only suffer. S-E’s stubbornness to admit a decline in gaming quality, if that’s what it is, is a product of figures.
The problem here is that FF13 is the thirteenth installment of a franchise. It’s no longer possible to not compare it to the previous installments. When a new Final Fantasy title is revealed, people get fired up over it because they draw comparisons and hold expectations based on previous releases. The Final Fantasy series (excluding the MMOs of 11 and 14) has always made a certain kind of game that appeal to a certain kind of gamer, namely, one who likes JRPGs. Although I agree with the fundamental point of your statement, that each game should be considered a microcosm in and of itself, that’s not how gamers think, and for a number of reasons. With each FF title, Square/Square-Enix wants to create something new, but draw from influence of previously made titles, as well as influences from other series.
I agree with the point that if you don’t play the game, you can’t impose an accurate judgment on it. That’s true with anything: you can’t review a book by just reading the back cover. HOWEVER, there is a reason for reviews and online discussion boards. When someone says that the game is too linear, they are criticizing a certain aspect that has become an expectation of the installments in the FF franchise.
Having played 7, 8, 9, 10, 10-2, and 12, I think that I am at least reasonably qualified to impose my knowledge of the previous titles to understand what the critic is trying to say about FFXIII and what gamers have come to expect from JRPGs. I can apply the criticism of linearity to the previous titles that I enjoyed; I can imagine FFVII and VIII without the element of freedom. I can also draw the comparison to FFX, which I found, in retrospect, to be very linear (at least, until the end). And through this, I can formulate an anticipation of particular aspects of the gameplay. That does not qualify as the same thing as playing the game, of course, but it does tell you something about the gameplay, and when the frequent criticsm of FFXIII’s linearity contrasts with the open-world feel that was praised from previous installments and has come to be an expectation from the series, it contributes to an inevitable dislike of the game.
I totally agree, but I would mention two things. First of all, the negative criticism needs to be constructive. Just saying “It’s too linear” is only partly helpful. Critics should give suggestions for improvement considering the plot, location, etc. The integration of certain elements with the constants (plot, etc.) is the difficult part. It’s easy to criticize when we don’t think about integration.
Secondly, I think that S-E is being stubborn. They need to be receptive to gamers’ complaints, rather than dismissive. And we gamers should also be receptive. Where many people find fault, there is, in fact, fault in one form or another. I’m not saying that every installment has to appeal to every kind of gamer--that’s an impossible task. But when the game divides gamers who previously agreed on most of the previous installments, there is room for improvement. Both we and S-E have to be open in acknowledging the problems and take the matters to heart. And all the negative feedback is good in that it reveals to the gaming community and the gaming franchises what our values are, and that we will voice our opinions when we agree in a common fault. But if all S-E cares about is sales and we continue to buy their games, no matter what quality they are, there will never be improvement.
I agree with your first point, but not your second.
I don't think people give SE enough credit, because I think they do listen (even when they shouldn't) and they try very hard. Ian Livingstone recently commented that far from throwing their weight around and adopting a 'we know best' attitude after merging with his company, their staff are always asking questions, eager to learn how they can appeal to western audiences more.
SE bent over backwards to address the (very unwise) comments that were made about FF12. Fans complained of slow pace, too open a world in which the story got lost for long periods, characters that could all be customised so much that they could become basically the same etc etc).
And so they cut out the free roaming, kept the focus on the main plot, sped the action up, split characters up so you had to use all of them and each got plenty of screen time, made each character play distinctively because of their available paradigms, did away with pointless loot etc etc.
But now they get hit with complaints about linearity, over simplified combat, not enough build up in the story etc etc...
IMO, they got it spot on with FF12, the change in directors being the only problem and one that could not be helped. And because the feedback was so negative about that game (from fans only, as FF12 was regarded warmly by some of the harshest critics out there), that they made lots of stylistic changes in FF13 that simply didn't need to be made.
SE have been by far the company that put in the most effort to tackling the issues of gameplay in JRPGs. Look outside SE and you see Namco and Mistwalker etc content to use decades old systems, with very little attention given to them. But SE have in games like Star Ocean 3+4, FF10-2, 12 and 13 etc, shown they are heedful of the need to update combat systems and make them more dynamic.
I think the core issue (and I've said it many times) is that people just don't like JRPGs at the moment. And that's because its been a long time since there has been a unifying title in the vein of FF7 or KOTOR (for WRPGs) that return their respective genres to the limelight.
And that's why I think SE actually need to listen less to fans (who opinions are reactive to the games they are seeing), and instead focus on finding someone with the spark of genius. These people are out there (people like Suda 51 and SWERY are good examples). They need to take a change on someone like that. Because only a truly fresh and inspired game will break them out of this slump.
At least, that's why I think, anyway.
Yes this is indeed part of what I meant by that statement on page 5.His point is when it goes too far and is too much in excess as opposed to people just generally speaking good about it.
And this is the other part of what I ment.the negative criticism needs to be constructive. Just saying “It’s too linear” is only partly helpful. Critics should give suggestions for improvement considering the plot, location, etc. The integration of certain elements with the constants (plot, etc.) is the difficult part. It’s easy to criticize when we don’t think about integration.
Being a blind fanatic who sees no fault is just as annoying as one who criticises to the extreme.
I recall Almír asking DragonCurry what he would have done differently (page 4-5). Asking those kind of questions is more contructive and far more usefull than having X amount of people defending the existance of the title and having Y amount of people flamming them. Topics like these do often turn out this way, acheiving nothing in the end.
As for people speaking their minds: I personnally have no intention of stoping them. Yes I may become caustic towards someone if I believe that they are just being antagonistic for the hell of it, and yes I may even fool around a bit, but I would not want to stop anyone explaining their points and views.does it really do the series any good if people don't speak their mind about the games?
Well, people are still buying them. Unless the population of gamers has grown increasingly S-T-U-P-I-D during the last few years then SE must be doing something right in someone's opinion. 5.5 million copies sure is a lot, and they certainly didn't make all those copies for the goodness of their health so they must be selling. Unless of course you're of the belief that there are 5.5 mentally challenged people out there.Square-Enix needs to be woken up from their delusion of what they think qualifies as a good game, just because they hold the rights to the FF franchise.
(if that is what you believe then so be it- but I sincerely doubt it myself)
Got any links to prove that?
Look at the feedback of any reviewer of FFXIII and compare the game with XII. They are the complete opposite.
Sadly though... the FF series has spawned numerous fanatics, just look at the FFVII Compilation for example and how the rabid fanbase is for them or even the PS2 generation of FF's. Each individual is different, but once they meet others who share their views, they flock together and think that if they get more with the same opinion on their side, that they'll get it across and hope that they'll change other people's opinions.
Sad but true... best to let the fools spout their own twisted gospel and ignore them. That's the worst thing you can do to them imo.As for people speaking their minds: I personnally have no intention of stoping them. Yes I may become caustic towards someone if I believe that they are just being antagonistic for the hell of it, and yes I may even fool around a bit, but I would not want to stop anyone explaining their points and views.
I think it can also be attributed to a influx in newcomers to the series, who don't know any better. The ones who think that graphics are more important than anything else. True 5.5 million copies is a lot... but what no one takes into account, are most probably the amount of copies returned to their stores of purchase. Still, gamers are quite diverse lot.Well, people are still buying them. Unless the population of gamers has grown increasingly S-T-U-P-I-D during the last few years then SE must be doing something right in someone's opinion. 5.5 million copies sure is a lot, and they certainly didn't make all those copies for the goodness of their health so they must be selling. Unless of course you're of the belief that there are 5.5 mentally challenged people out there.
(if that is what you believe then so be it- but I sincerely doubt it myself)
Remember though topopoz, reviewers generally fall into two categories: Unbiased and Biased. IIRC, there were some reviewers who gave FFXIII glowing and almost perfect scores... however later they did change their minds. I don't really think a person can truly trust a reviewer's opinion regardless of who the reviewer is. Only way a gamer can truly find out if the game in question, is one that they'll enjoy is to play it themselves.
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Nw l kash zo tash antai kash tik sh sot.
Pro sh sot nu gauti ty k
Pro ty k nu gauti midwan
Pro midwan nu gauti pergaleas
Pro pergaleas nuyak aras svistuis
Tave qy sik sekleti won nun
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Precisely - I'm not sure what you're getting at there, Aniki. What evidence do you need, beyond common sense, seeing as the fact is the games are totally different in style, tone and gameplay? (There is also the fact that I'm absolutely hopeless with computers and couldn't post a link if my life depended on it - see my lack of an Avatar; it isn't because I don't believe in them...)
Or do you consider FF13 to be free roaming? The one thing that everyone agrees about FF13 is that it is linear, with cutscenes every 5 minutes. If that isn't keeping the focus on the story, then what is? The game is divided into 13 Chapters, which each have their own specific plot point, which plays out to a conclusion before the game moves on.
And the action is sped up - the move to real time combat, with no seperate 'battle screen' in FF12 was hugely controversial. This game restores it, along with the fact you heal instantly after each fight, that there is no MP for spells, a much slimmed down Gambit style system, only a bare bones inventory system, auto battle command etc etc.
Fans were very vocal in their criticisms when FF12 came out. I remember Edge magazine did an article revisting FF12 fairly recently, going to pains to point out that it is by far the best installment in years in their opinion, and that many fans did the series no favours by criticising it so heavily, whilst lauding emo bore-fests like FF10.
And I agree with them - I'm a much bigger fan of FF13 than most people on here, but I still think many of the decisions taken in that game's development, represent a step back from FF12.
Anyway, Square do seem to be trying. They putting up some of the cash for Deus Ex: Revolution, aren't they? I'm sure they're involved somehow. And they worked with Obsidian recently on Dungeon Siege 3, so they're obviously trying to keep abreast of developments in RPGs.
We'll have to judge them on merit of course, but these things can take time. How long did it take EA to remember how to make good games again? You couldn't pay me to play the games they were making 5 years ago, but they're one of my favourite companies again, now.
I don't give them credit for being accurate. But it's more based on the more common complains from both types of reviewes. Even the internet personalities, such as Zero Punctuation and the TGWTG people.
They complained about the linearity, the battle system and the hard to follow storyline, art design and annoying characters.
XII on the counterpart has no linearity, a overly flexible Battle system, even though the art design for certain characters like Vaan is ugly, the others worked perfectly IMO as the characters some of them are annoying and some of them are not. The story still is hard to follow I'll give you that. And that's the main reason people blindly say that the storyline of XII sucks or is another SW ripoff.
But Highlighting the common things. XIII and XII are opposites and that's the main hint that S-E did listened to the fans.
The art design for FF12 is great (although Balthier's combat animation with a spear is quite odd - he seems to use it like a hammer!)
More like a Shovel I would say XD
Many people hate this game because they are intimidated by Lightning.
Intimidated by a female Cloud Strife?!? Not bloody likely... and for the record I don't find her intimidating at all, if anything I feel sorry for her as she's going to typecast always as a female Cloud Strife (just like how Mark 'The Force waved bye-bye to any good gigs I could've gotten, like what Harrison Ford got' Hamill, who shall forever be remembered as Luke Skywalker(and to a lesser extent as Colonel Christopher Blair in the Wing Commander games and the voice of The Joker)).Many people hate this game because they are intimidated by Lightning.
Lightning had no chance to break the mold from whence she was created, as SE 'wanted' the female lead to be modern representation of FFVII's protaganist.
Do you by chance have any facts to back up that theory- or did you, like so many previously, pluck that randomly from your head?Lightning had no chance to break the mold from whence she was created, as SE 'wanted' the female lead to be modern representation of FFVII's protaganist.
It's common knowledge that the lead character designer for FFXIII (Tetsura Nomura) was told by Motomu Toriyama to make Lightning, more or less a female Cloud Strife. Taken from Wikipedia:
On that same page, even Videogamer.com compared Lightning to Cloud:His guideline to character designer Tetsuya Nomura was to make her "strong and beautiful", "someone like a female version of Cloud from FFVII".
So no Almir, I did not 'pluck that randomly from my head'. Don't believe me? Here's the damn link: [Hidden link. Register to see links.].simply referred to Lightning as the female version of the Final Fantasy VII lead character Cloud Strife
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The design and inspiration for Lightning may indeed be derived from Cloud (as previously stated in the damn link). However the storyline alone exploited some major differences between the two. Cloud avoided conflict and tried to foist the responsibility else where. Lightning on the other hand was the complete opposite. There were also major differences between the way they treated their allies. For more information play the game to the end this time before posting.
I completely support Almir on this.
Whether Lighting to intended to be Cloud MkII, doesn't get in the way of the fact that the characters have significant differences. They have to address many of the same issues that all heroes in RPGs do (learning who they really are, questioning what they think they know, learning to trust others instead of themselves etc etc). But there are differences too - they are by no means just the same character with a different gender.
Cloud is an arrogant, mercenary for hire. Lightning is a member of the security forces, and whilst annoyed at other team member's lack of strength and endurance, she never ever brags about having it herself. As far as I remember, she never once during the game boasts about anything at all.
She is working to make a life for herself, but primarily for her sister - Cloud is only interested in making money for himself. Its a major sore point between him and Barret, seeing as how Cloud is perfectly happy to accept money that Barret was saving for his daughter's future.
Cloud's story leads him to realise he was never able to be the man he wanted to be, when he set out to join SOLDIER. He wasn't good enough, and is only strong now, because of the genetic mods that Professor Hojo gave him. Lightning however *was* good enough on her own merit to join the corps, and was due for promotion. Until the purge, her life was more or less sorted.
They both have to faces a crisis of self worth, find the strength to go on against impossible odds - but that's hardly unique to them, is it? Join the queue with all the rest of the heroes!
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