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Thread: Dispute of Final Fantasy 8 - Rinoa and Ultimecia

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by animeangelash View Post
    Honestly, even if Square has rebuked the theory, I continue to look at the story that way regardless, because it prevents Ultimecia from being an incredibly shitty villain.
    LOL!

    This speaks for itself...
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  2. #27
    you know my username and my avatar arent related Mercenary Raven's Avatar
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    Wasn't Ultimecia hinted to be from a future where Sorceresses were persecuted and killed due to fear of their power? SEED ended up killing her and then she traveled back in time to prevent SEED from forming and caused a huge time paradox... the thing about FF8 is that they don't explain things directly, you have to read between the lines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary Raven View Post
    Wasn't Ultimecia hinted to be from a future where Sorceresses were persecuted and killed due to fear of their power? SEED ended up killing her and then she traveled back in time to prevent SEED from forming and caused a huge time paradox... the thing about FF8 is that they don't explain things directly, you have to read between the lines.
    Ultimecia's future will evenually happen, she traveled back in time to give her powers to Edea. Ultimecia is a descendent of Rinoa.

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    Ultimecia is a descendent of Rinoa? Where did you pull that from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos The God View Post
    Ultimecia's future will evenually happen, she traveled back in time to give her powers to Edea. Ultimecia is a descendent of Rinoa.
    Just because a sorceress receives their powers from someone doesn't make them a descendent of the one they get it from.

  6. #31
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    I said that because Rinoa's the last sorceress that we know of. How did Ultimecia get soo powerful? I read somewhere that she had half of Hyne's power.

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    I'm pretty sure Ellone is a sorceress (correct me if I'm wrong though), on top of the fact that there are many sorceresses that are probably in hiding because of the wide-spread phobia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by animeangelash View Post
    Honestly, even if Square has rebuked the theory, I continue to look at the story that way regardless, because it prevents Ultimecia from being an incredibly shitty villain.
    ... that's your choice to believe that, however as SE has rebuked this 'theory', and given the 'official' story. Believe whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is Utimecia is not Rinoa.

    Her motivation leaves me feeling exactly nothing in regard to her, because it's shockingly generic. Yes, most of the villains in Final Fantasy want to take over/destroy the world, but most have the courtesy to have personal reasons for doing so. Sephiroth is driven to madness by the Jenova project; Seymour lusts for power after being shunned from society as a child and gaining the Final Aeon; damn, even Shuyin had a backstory that explains why he's doing what he's doing. Not Ultimecia.
    Ultimecia's motivation is the same as Palpatine's from the Star Wars movies. Both knew they had enemies, and in turn created the force which defeated them. Palpatine through Vader's Apprentice, Starkiller, united his foes into the Rebel Alliance. Ultimecia knew she would be defeated by the 'Legendary SeeD' and had the notion of Time Compression to make her into a God and when that failed, and due to Time Compression her powers etc went to Edea Kramer and from SeeD was started shortly after Edea received the dying Ultimecia's powers and met Squall Leonhart from the future who told her about the SeeD. A predetermined paradox in otherwords.

    With rebuking it, I think Square kind of shot themselves in the foot. I understand that they want the game to end up on a happy note and stick with the 'love conquers all' message, but still, no need to out and deny it.
    The central theme to FFVIII is Love. FFVIII was made in a attempt to get more female gamers into the series which had mixed results I suppose...

    I will admit, though, I do enjoy how Rinoa's and Ultimecia's facial models are identical.
    It is conceivable that Ultimecia MAY be a descendant of Rinoa (and Squall), but as SE hasn't said otherwise, that's purely open to conjecture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary Raven View Post
    Wasn't Ultimecia hinted to be from a future where Sorceresses were persecuted and killed due to fear of their power? SEED ended up killing her and then she traveled back in time to prevent SEED from forming and caused a huge time paradox... the thing about FF8 is that they don't explain things directly, you have to read between the lines.
    True. Read this: [Hidden link. Register to see links.].

    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos The God View Post
    Ultimecia's future will evenually happen, she traveled back in time to give her powers to Edea. Ultimecia is a descendent of Rinoa.
    Like I said in response to animeangelash, it is indeed conceivable that Ultimecia [i]MAY[/b] descended from Rinoa (and Squall), however to say that they are related when there are other Sorceresses in the world of FFVIII (where anyone of them could be Ultimecia's Ancestor) is folly. Also, just because Rinoa's a Sorceress doesn't solely mean that Ultimecia got her powers from her parents. Julia Heartilly wasn't a Sorceress, and Rinoa didn't show any signs of Sorceress ability until Edea passed her powers onto Rinoa (who was then possessed by Ultimecia) as detailed in the game itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos The God View Post
    I said that because Rinoa's the last sorceress that we know of. How did Ultimecia get soo powerful?
    There were other Sorceresses, just never in the mainstream. I recall fighting some of them in a boss battle in FFVIII... can't remember where though... IMO, Ultimecia was like a lich, possessing others and taking some of their power. Doing so, would make her more powerful than others... but that's just me.

    I read somewhere that she had half of Hyne's power.
    I would like to see a source for that statement, as I don't personally believe that to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary Raven View Post
    I'm pretty sure Ellone is a sorceress (correct me if I'm wrong though), on top of the fact that there are many sorceresses that are probably in hiding because of the wide-spread phobia.
    Ellone isn't a Sorceress. She was hunted due to her ability to send a human's consciousness back in time. Dr Odine's "Junction Machine Ellone" to replicate Ellone's power, and the while the device proved successful in doing so, though not to the power and extent of Ellone's natural ability.


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  9. #34
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    If I remember correctly, the game also implies that there are more than one sorceress at a time (outside of the story which follows only the ones we know like Edea, Adel, and Ultimecia). Which would mean that whoever passed their powers to Ultimecia could've been anyone, not just the ones who inherit Rinoa's power.

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    Probably all but outright stated, in fact, considering we have Edea Kramer AND Rinoa existing at the same time. Edea is a sorceress, right? I'm sorta rusty on my knowledge of FF8....

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    Now that I think about it I'm pretty sure what I said is true. My reason: Adel was still alive since the beginning of the game (well, technically before it started) which would mean besides her, Edea and eventually Rinoa were sorceresses at the same time she was. And if a sorceress can't die until they pass their powers onto someone else, that would mean before Adel could die, she'd have to give her powers to someone else first while Rinoa was still one herself. Not sure if Edea is still one if she Rinoa inherited her powers unless she can keep hers as well but when it's time for her to die, she won't have to worry about passing her powers to someone else because she already did that when living.

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    Being a Sorceress in FFVIII isn't like being say the Slayer from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (only one can be active at any one time). There are multiple Sorceresses in FFVIII... Edea was a Sorceress since she was 5 years old, yet didn't let that change her from being a benign and gentle person. Unlike Ultimecia, Edea never resented the world for the prejudice it must have shown her - she spends her entire life devoted to helping others, focusing upon the children she cares for in her orphanage. It was only after she met met Ultimecia and a teenage Squall, both who had come from the future (As a result of defeating Ultimecia in the timeline of FFVIII). Ultimecia was dying, having been defeated by Squall, and Edea received Ultimecia's powers. Squall told Edea about the SeeD and the Garden, saluting her with the SeeD salute, before disappearing

    Rinoa only became a Sorceress initially due to Edea's powers (and also Ultimecia who was possessing her) passed to Rinoa after the Battle of the Gardens. Later in the game, after defeating Adel (who was junctioned to Rinoa), the older Sorceress's powers went to Rinoa so that Adel could die in peace.

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    you know my username and my avatar arent related Mercenary Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDX View Post
    Now that I think about it I'm pretty sure what I said is true. My reason: Adel was still alive since the beginning of the game (well, technically before it started) which would mean besides her, Edea and eventually Rinoa were sorceresses at the same time she was. And if a sorceress can't die until they pass their powers onto someone else, that would mean before Adel could die, she'd have to give her powers to someone else first while Rinoa was still one herself. Not sure if Edea is still one if she Rinoa inherited her powers unless she can keep hers as well but when it's time for her to die, she won't have to worry about passing her powers to someone else because she already did that when living.
    And I think that it was stated (or maybe implied) that the world went after many sorceresses at that point due to their inane fear of... well, Ultimecia.



    Also, aside from the creators stating it, there's enough in-game proof through reading between the lines that Ultimecia isn't Rinoa. The concept of an FF game with a happy ending is indeed quite surprising to all.

  14. #39
    If you have the greatest aim, keep it in your soul Almír's Avatar
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    There seems to have been yet again another stramash here.

    However, unlike the last one I had the unfortunate 'honour' of attending, I find myself agreeing with much of what Revan says- if not his manner. If SE have stated that Ultimecia and Rinoa are not the same, then they ARE NOT THE SAME.

    Though I did find it mildly amusing the way Revan used Star Wars to explain his points. If in doubt rely on the wisdom passed down by Mr Lucas himself. I'm not being smart here, I honestly did find it all very funny. No insult intended.

    I do have one question though. Why did Rinoa ask for Squall's ring?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almír View Post
    There seems to have been yet again another stramash here.

    However, unlike the last one I had the unfortunate 'honour' of attending, I find myself agreeing with much of what Revan says- if not his manner. If SE have stated that Ultimecia and Rinoa are not the same, then they ARE NOT THE SAME.

    Though I did find it mildly amusing the way Revan used Star Wars to explain his points. If in doubt rely on the wisdom passed down by Mr Lucas himself. I'm not being smart here, I honestly did find it all very funny. No insult intended.

    I do have one question though. Why did Rinoa ask for Squall's ring?
    To answer your question, the reason Rinoa gave Zell for wanting Squall's ring, was to have a copy made for herself to wear. However, that's open to conjecture as well as some think it was a more subtle form of emotional blackmail Rinoa would have over Squall. Or probably a more symbolic gesture, as she kept Squall's ring on the chain around her neck with her mother's ring on it... hence keeping the rings of the two people who mean the world to her, close to her heart.

  16. #41
    If you have the greatest aim, keep it in your soul Almír's Avatar
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    Why didn't she just ask for it outright? Why get Zell to ask Squall? Throughout the game she is both happy, cheerfull and a little pushy towards Squall. What mystifies me the the way she went about obtaining the ring. If it was for sentimental reasons (or any other) then I would have expected her to ask Squall personally, as this would have better suited her character.

  17. #42
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    Because she thought he probably would have said no if she'd asked him outright -remember, Squall was still very much antisocial even at that point in the game, and hadn't begun to accept his feelings for her. So by using Zell to ask him as her proxy gave her a better chance of getting what she wanted.

    Or at least, that was just my interpretation of it anyway.
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    I agree. Not even I would've given it to her. Then again, I wouldn't have even given it to Zell if it were me.

  19. #44
    If you have the greatest aim, keep it in your soul Almír's Avatar
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    Because she thought he probably would have said no if she'd asked him outright -remember, Squall was still very much antisocial even at that point in the game, and hadn't begun to accept his feelings for her. So by using Zell to ask him as her proxy gave her a better chance of getting what she wanted.
    Maybe, but like IDX said:

    I wouldn't have even given it to Zell if it were me.
    This is a similar sentiment Squall had regarding Zell in a ways. I know that he did give the ring to Zell in the end but from Rinoa's point of view choosing (of all people) Zell to ask Squall was a risky idea. If it ment enough to her, why would she risk it so?

    The reason I ask is because:

    (a) Of all the things I've read in this theory (which I don't really agree with- especiall if the creators themselves state otherwise) the connection between Squall's ring and Ultimecia's ability to summon Griever is the only valid point made. If this connection doesn't exist (which I have no doubt of) then what plausibe reason would Rinoa have wanted the ring for? Or why for that matter did she risk sending Zell to obtain it, Zell doesn't have a tactful or subtle bone in his body.

    (b)
    Squall was still very much antisocial even at that point in the game, and hadn't begun to accept his feelings for her.
    Agreed. However, this makes the mystery even more confusing. Since Squall hadn't even begun to accept his feelings for Rinoa then why would he relinquish his ring to her? Alright, he gave it to Zell, but he knew who had really wanted it in the first place. A ring is a symbolic statement, not something you give to just anyone. Squall was more than capable of telling Zell and Rinoa to 'Get Lost', so it isn't as if he gave into peer pressure.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almír View Post
    This is a similar sentiment Squall had regarding Zell in a ways. I know that he did give the ring to Zell in the end but from Rinoa's point of view choosing (of all people) Zell to ask Squall was a risky idea. If it ment enough to her, why would she risk it so?
    More than likely because Rinoa was embarressed and possibly afraid to tell Squall the reason she wanted the ring.

    (a) Of all the things I've read in this theory (which I don't really agree with- especiall if the creators themselves state otherwise) the connection between Squall's ring and Ultimecia's ability to summon Griever is the only valid point made. If this connection doesn't exist (which I have no doubt of) then what plausibe reason would Rinoa have wanted the ring for? Or why for that matter did she risk sending Zell to obtain it, Zell doesn't have a tactful or subtle bone in his body.
    Squall admires lions for their strength and courage. Griever, is not only the symbol that embodies the traits Squall values dearly (dignity, strength, courage, justice as well as almost any proud courageous characteristic), but is also Squall's interpretation of the ultimate Guardian Force. Having been summoned by Ultimecia during the final battle by extracting Griever's likeness from Squall's mind

    The parts of the lion carry different symbolism as well; the head (which is featured prominently throughout Griever's interpretations) means care and vigilance, and if it is winged (like on the gunblades and the ring) it represents fire.

    Agreed. However, this makes the mystery even more confusing. Since Squall hadn't even begun to accept his feelings for Rinoa then why would he relinquish his ring to her? Alright, he gave it to Zell, but he knew who had really wanted it in the first place. A ring is a symbolic statement, not something you give to just anyone. Squall was more than capable of telling Zell and Rinoa to 'Get Lost', so it isn't as if he gave into peer pressure.
    However, Squall was already 'taken' by Rinoa at that time figuratively speaking. During the Graduation Dance at Balamb, Squall was attracted to Rinoa at first sight and when Rinoa (after the dance) went off to speak to Cid, it's obvious she had a effect on him. Regading the handing of the ring to Zell, consider that at the time Squall was busy (and also knowing how Zell can be) would it be too hard to accept that Squall gave the ring to Zell to shut him up? Or... he had a subconscious thought as to what was really behind Zell's reason for wanting the ring.

    Ultimately though, this isn't the sort of thing which should be over analyzed. We all know what happens in FFVIII, SE has told us Rinoa is not Ultimecia, why not leave it as is?

  21. #46
    If you have the greatest aim, keep it in your soul Almír's Avatar
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    Ultimately though, this isn't the sort of thing which should be over analyzed. We all know what happens in FFVIII, SE has told us Rinoa is not Ultimecia, why not leave it as is?
    I know that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. To me that is just a stupid, lame theory with no support to back any of the claims. However, I was curious as to why his ring was subject to Rinoa's fascination. The reasons have now been stated and I am satisfied, so I am more than happy to leave it as is.

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    I wonder if Squall ever asked for his ring back. Or if Zell even made a replica of it. Squall is obviously very attached to his ring so one would think he would at least mention about wanting it back. I have a ring that I'm very attached to as well but on the very unrealistic chance I do lend it to someone, I would ask for it back sooner than later.

  23. #48
    If you have the greatest aim, keep it in your soul Almír's Avatar
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    I wondered the same thing. Does anyone have an answer?......Does anyone care???? (Besides me....and IDX)

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    It doesn't matter what SE say, they made FF;AC after all -.-; the fact is; rinoa=ultimecia ia a much better plotline and makes the characters and the story far more interesting, when i read the thoery on one site it was amazing, it made the FF8 story seem twice as brilliant. If I had been SE, I would've just held my tongue.

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    Last edited by FamiliarFantasy; 03-04-2014 at 03:31 PM.

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