Hojo one of the most evil ff characters in history?
He treats everyone like objects, even sephiroth.
He caused countless pain and suffering, like the scene of aeris/aerith and red XIII.
He was using zach as a vr test subject.
He might have killed krast.Atm i don't know if he did or not.
He used his wife and child as a test subject,causing his wife to die.
He tried to destroy the world.
He used countless soldiers as guinea pigs in the mako reactors.
This guy is big time evil.He has commited countless atrocities.
Whilst there is no denying he has committed some appalling acts (probably the most chilling scene in the game is where Cloud finds the 2 kids in Nibelheim turned into Sephiroth clone rejects). And the game pushes the idea that good or evil is passed from parent to child (hence Sephiroth inherits Hojo's evil, whereas Aeris inherits Gast's goodness etc). But it isn't quite as cut and dried as that. Most characters have committed some dark acts, but have some redeeming qualities (let's not forget that the main characters like Barret, Tifa and Cloud are domestic terrorists whose actions have harmed and killed innocent people). There are very few truly innocent people in this game (Marlene and Aeris are 2 of the only genuinely innocent characters).
Even Hojo and Sephiroth are not without their redeeming features. Before he finds out the truth of himself, Sephiroth is actually a pretty okay guy (although Tifa senses the evil within him from the first time she meets him, before he even knows himself). Hojo meanwhile has committed all kinds of despicable acts, but at the very end before he dies on the Mako Cannon, he does reveal that despite his insanity and evil, he loves his son even if his son despises him. He may not act it and he may not like it, but he does care about Sephiroth and it tips him right over the edge into utter madness.
I think on balance that Hojo and Sephiroth probably are the most evil characters in the series. Sephiroth is the product of a union of 2 truly evil entities (Hojo and the cells of JENOVA), and its implied that Lucretia was no saint either (although she genuinely seems to regret what happened). Hojo is a man who is literally driven out of his mind by his need to surpass Dr Gast. Unlike Gast, he views the world soley in scientific terms, and misses the other side of the science/spiritual equation that gave Gast his genius. Therefore the work of Hojo results in monsters and evil, rather than Gast's union with Ifalna which creates Aeris - a girl who is in some ways too good for the wretched world she was born into, like Holy she was a shining light in the darkness. And she is destroyed by Hojo, JENOVA and Sephiroth's evil. Though she has the final say with Holy.
The problem i have with this, is even if he said that he loved his son, i'm not sure if i believe him due to what he did to his son.Maybe he is just plain nuts, because what he did to his son if he was in our world, he would have been thrown in prison for life or in the nut house.
Originally Posted by Vrykolas
Sephiroth on the other hand was more sympathetic than hojo.Sure he killed people but i think of it this way:If a dog has been abused and bites someone in the end, sure the dog is bad, but the person who abused the dog leading to that is worse.It would be one thing if we saw sephiroth choose to do selfish acts without a care of the repercussions, such as other ff villains.But for the life of me i have trouble truly blaming sephiroth fully.I'm not surprised he went nuts and killed people.Heck the jenova cells cause you to go nuts, but hojo was nuts before he injected himself.It might be he had cells in him before that, who knows because in the end of the game when you kill him he did inject himself he said.I can't be sure though when exactly he injected himself since we didn't see him do it.
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I dont' remember clearly when or why, but i think it had something to do with vincent not agreeing with what was done to lucrecia, making it even more a tragedy in itself.
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This point in itself is interesting.
Last edited by Nostalgia gamer; 02-23-2015 at 06:11 AM.
A lot of people have trouble showing love, but it shows through when it really matters. When Sephiroth summons Meteor, everyone knows they have to stop him. Avalanche and Shinra may not work together (and in fact still try to kill each other), but they do actually agree on one thing - that if Sephiroth isn't stopped, then the world will be destroyed and everyone will die. And yet Hojo is the one person who actually aids Sephiroth. He knows the planet will die, that everyone on the planet will die, including himself. But he does it anyway, because Sephiroth is his son. I'm not saying that Hojo likes the idea of loving anyone or anything - the whole idea of love seems to disgust him, but you can't fight this sort of thing. Just as Red XIII and Yuffier etc claim to hate their fathers, but do in fact love them, and are cut from the same cloth (Heroic in REd's case, roguish in Yuffie's case etc).
As for Sephiroth... well, he was planning to murder everyone in the whole world, so I'm not sure how much sympathy I have with him! Plus he murdered Aeris in cold blood, after trying to force Cloud to do for it. Sephiroth may have had a raw deal in life, but he had plenty of good people around him giving postive example of how to behave (Zack, Cloud etc) that he can't just blame an abusive start in life. The evil was put inside him against his will, and his mother Lucretia grieves terribly for him because to her, he will always simply be her beloved son.
But by the time of Final Fantasy 7's events, Sephiroth has become a true monster. He's already killed countless innocents, and intends to finish off by killing everyone on the planet. In terms of the scale of murder he plans, but also because of the intimacy of the cruelty he causes to Cloud and Aeris, driving them apart and trying to get Cloud to beat and murder her, he has to be stopped. His father and mother will always love him, but that doesn't change the facts. Vincent understands this, and though it will be a grave crime to Lucretia to murder her son, he resolves that it must be done. Because evil like that of Hojo, JENOVA and Sephiroth must not be allowed to exist - something he feels may apply to himself after what was done to him.
The problem i have with hojo being in love with sephiroth, is i find it hard to believe that someone who puts their wife and child through such hardships for his own selfis desires, can truly love someone that much.Maybe i'm wrong maybe not, but you do put up some interesting ideas which i will gladly discuss with you.
Originally Posted by Vrykolas
The reason i'm not sure, is because of i think it was in dirge of cerberus where supposedly, hojo tried to conquer the world.I just have doubts a person like hojo has a soul, since he must have one of the blackest hearts in ff7.
What he did to vincent also was pretty rotten too.
Well, I haven't played Dirge of Cerberus, and I consider all the expanded universe stuff to be pretty dodgy (like the atrocious Advent Children). I only base my opinions on the original game, because the rest of the stuff seems like Square milking the franchise (same as me not recognising Persona 3's The Answer and any of the myriad spin offs of Persona 4 - official sequels I will recognize, but these kinds of cash ins like Crisis Core and Dirge etc are just pathetic IMO).
Anyway, the fact is that Hojo knows that by aiding Sephiroth on the Mako Cannon, he is dooming both the world but also himself. I just don't see why he would do something like that, because its utterly sucidal. He admits he is doing it to help his son, and I can't see any reason to doubt that under the circumstances (why would he lie about it at this point, what could he possibly gain seeing as how he plans to kill Cloud and the others anyway?) And like I say, aiding Sephiroth will mean his death. There's no reason to do it, except a father's love for his son.
And as for his actions to Sephiroth and Lucretia, yeah he is a complete jerk and a monster, and is someone who abuses and neglects his family. But he is hardly alone in that - the world is full of such tales. A lot of fathers have trouble relating to their kids, and admitting their feelings because it just isn't the way they are wired. But that doesn't mean they don't care. For a famous example of that, just look at Star Wars - Darth Vader is utterly ruthless and heartless throughout the movies, until the end of Return of the Jedi when he sacrifices himself, his position and all the power he has been destroying whole worlds and slaughtering innocents by the billions to obtain, all to save his son's life.
On a personal note, I have huge problems with my own father. We are very different people and don't really agree on anything. I have very few good memories associated with him, but certain events in our life remind us now and again that we do love each other, despite all that. I love him, but I don't really like him basically. Life is a very complicated thing - it isn't simply the case that people who care are nice to each other all the time. More's the pity really...
I kind of felt that way about jecht.I felt that jecht was one of those fathers who was inadecuate at showing love but deep down he loved tidus his son.He just wanted tidus to be more like him and cry a little less.I think the reason i felt sad when he died, was because he wasn't a bad guy.He was an asshole but deep down he cared about his son.
I wasn't fully sure about hojo though.I thought that he was just mostly insane as it was and possibly i theorize that he injected jenova cells in himself ages ago.He did act pretty nutty and creepy most of the part.He seemed to admire sephiroth, but it didn't feel like he admired him as a person but rather as a experiment that was succesfull, if that makes any sense.
Well yes, but its been said that whilst Mothers love unconditionally, fathers demand accomplishment. They want their sons to make their mark, and sometimes that success is what the father hopes will ultimately be his own legacy. I.e that without the father, the world would not have the genius talent of his son etc. There is no doubt that Hojo views Sephiroth as a successful experiment, but he is not immune to the magnetism that Sephiroth has. Like the clones, he is drawn to Sephiroth, going so far as to quit his job at Shinra where he is respected and afforded great status, to strike out into the world alone to find him. That suggests that even then, recognition for his work was becoming less important to him than finding his son. Its likely even he doesn't understand why he is so drawn to him at that point.
Love is a complicated thing. Hojo's interest in Sephiroth is stemming from seeing his son as a success that he can take credit for, and prove to the world that he was better (in his own mind) that Dr Gast. But the scene on the Mako cannon strongly suggests he has moved on from all that. The end of the world will do that - remove the pretence and leave only the truth, because what does anything else matter at that point? He no longer speaks of Sephiroth in purely experimental suceess terms. He refers to him as his son and speaks of his desire to protect him. Its only at the very end, in the depths of his madness and just before the world is destroyed, that he can admit to himself and others that he really did care for his son, even though its far too late now to make any difference to anyone.
As with Ject and Tidus, Balthier and Dr Cid, Zidane and... whatever that big guy's name was who runs the acting troupe, Final Fantasy is full of parents and kids who just can't get along, despite how much they love each other. And not just actual parents either, because there are plenty of surrogate parental relationships too. It doesn't excuse the actions of people like Hojo or Sephiroth, but it makes them more believeable as characters.
Its why characters like Hojo and Sephiroth matter to me an infinite amount more than someone like Kefka. Because Kefka is just some crazy guy with no story, and to me that isn't interesting in the slightest. His actions may be evil, but I just can't connect or care or find any reason to assign crediblity to such a 2D caricature. He's only a character in the same way as I consider Dr Claw from Inspector Gadget to be a character, or Baron Greenback from Dangermouse.
When he did that did hojo inject himself already with jenova cells?
Last edited by Nostalgia gamer; 03-10-2015 at 04:00 PM.
Reason: lets stop derailing
I don't see how you can criticise Sephiroth and say you need more information in the same breath that you praise Kefka - a character about whom we know *nothing* despite all his screen time. Simply being in the game doesn't make you a developed character. Kefka may show up a lot, but none of it gives him any depth whatsoever. He has no story, beyond being some crazy guy who laughs a lot and tries to take over the world. There's nothing to hold onto, no story or reason to engage with his character one way or the other. He's no more remarkable than Ganon or Thanatos or any of dozens and dozens of old time RPG villains. I have no interest in such shallow characters, because they bear no relation to real life. He's cut from the same cloth as cartoon villains (except that some of those actually have some story - Skeletor has more story than Kefka...) With Sephiroth, I understood his motivations. It doesn't mean I agree with them of course, but at least I see how he gets from A to B. Kefka starts out at B and just keeping going over it with a pen until its an extremely pronounced B. He's just crazy and evil... you know... because.
Sephiroth's reaction to finding out his true lineage is consistent with how much importance people place on lineage. You must understand that rightly or wrongly, people judge indiviudals by what they know of their family members, particularly the parents. If the parents are seen to be good people, then the child will be warmly received too. If the parents are guilty of some kind of awful crime, then society will (unjustly) view the child as being of 'bad blood', of belonging to a line which has evil in its blood. Its a backwards and silly attitude, but even today people will go to great pains to cover up embarassing or criminal reletives, because they know that assoication with them will cost them in life. Eugenics is the ultimate expression of this kind of thing, the attempt to actually distill certain traits and often to implant favourable 0nes from selected sources. Sephiroth has spent his whole life being told and believing that he is a once in a lifetime specimen, a truly outstanding and naturally gifted man. He has tried to keep the pride which emanates from this under control and to help those around him achieve their own success. But he clearly views his prowess with pride, and praises Dr Gast for his work in the belief that Gast's work magnified his own greatness, that they were both outstanding individuals. Learning that his greatness is actually aritifically induced by a man he openly mocks - Hojo - destroys his sense of self esteem. He is no longer the perfect superhuman man, he is just some thing grown in a vat by a madman.
His ego cannot accept this humble and unwholesome origin, and so he reaches for a more dignified explanation, identifying with tales of injustice done to great people, and believing that is what is what is happening to him. Because as soon as people find out the truth, they will stop seeing him as the great and mighty Sephiroth, the uniquely gifted and strong man that everyone currently sees him as. They will start whispering that he is a monster, that he is unnatural. They will see him as something that should not be part of society. Whether any of that would actually happen is debateable, but the important thing is that Sephiroth believes it will. His ego cannot accept anything less than what he has believes all his ife - that he is special, that he is descended from greatness, and that righteous and powerful blood flows in his veins. His grasp of the history is imperfect, due to his feverish reading of the reports, but the narrative he constructs allows his mind to cope with the shock of learning he is not who he thought he was.
You may dismiss it, but this kind of thing is real. People judge bloodlines, and they labele certain families as 'they're all crazy, that lot' and assume that mere exposure to unsavoury people will have had an effect on them. Logically there is no real justification for any of that. But people believe it, they always have, they still do and they probably always will. If you were found to be a descendant of King Arthur, you'd want people to know about it, because its pretty cool and people would respect it. If you were found to be a descendant of Ted Bundy, then you wouldn't tell anyone, would you?
I do agree that a villain needs a counterpoint in a strong hero. Which is why I like FF7 and not FF6, seeing as how 6 is an ensemble cast, and 7 has the hero's backstory tied intimately to the villain. Cloud's story *is* Sephiroth's story.
But I have nothing further to add, so I'll leave it there. The games are all very old now, and I've said all of this before.
Last edited by Vrykolas; 03-01-2015 at 07:28 AM.
no ff6 talk here.I erased cause i should have not argued
Last edited by Nostalgia gamer; 03-10-2015 at 03:59 PM.
Reason: this topic needs less derailing
'You're biased against FF6'...
Man, you never change, do you? Always accusing and attacking people of bias, just because they don't agree with your opinions. Either learn to debate in a civilsed and open manner, or just write a blog or something. Forums are for debate, and the sharing of opinions. And using thread derailment as an excuse to shut people down is just cheap beyond belief.
Last edited by Vrykolas; 03-01-2015 at 08:27 PM.
I was trying to show interest in ff7.I didnt want this into another ff6 vs ff7.Why? the thread i read got me interested enough to investigate hojo, then i saw doc which painted him as a cliche mad doctor.I think he was better off without doc