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Harkus
07-03-2010, 05:09 AM
Personally I think it is the worst of the series and pretty much the worst gameplay I've experienced for a looooong time.

Aniki
07-03-2010, 06:24 AM
I think Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw described it perfectly by saying: "Final Fantasy XIII makes it very clear that it would prefer to involve the player as little as possible".

Neg
07-03-2010, 07:15 AM
It really is a nice change from XII's which requires you to do nothing, basically. Which is nice in its own way (I've sung its praises before. There is SOMETHING about being able to just sit back and twiddle with analog sticks alone, all the live-long day), but changing paradigms feels a lot more kinetic and it's great how fast paced it is :)

Plus, it doesn't involved changing costumes, and everyone changes at once, so step up from X-2, for me (from what I remember of it. I played X-2 for like 5 minutes). I just feel like they finally got a job game right, in this series. Yeah, you have 6 different parts in the crystarium for everybody but it doesn't feel cumbersome like 2 completely seperate leveling systems in III and V.

Rob never hit triangle to use attacks early and I just can't fathom that. I had to do it all the time to keep chains up, at least while there are only 2 party members. It just makes me feel like I'm always doing something by managing the timing of attacks even if they are auto-queued.

Smarty
07-03-2010, 09:11 AM
I think Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw described it perfectly by saying: "Final Fantasy XIII makes it very clear that it would prefer to involve the player as little as possible".

Indeed. Or as he said more recently in his "Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands" review :

"I don't have time for films. Apparently they're like games, but they're unfold without you having to do anything. Like the next logical step for the Final Fantasy series."

Harkus
07-03-2010, 11:38 AM
haha, yeah I saw that review today from Yahtzee, I lol'd.

Neg, in XII i never put Gambits on my party leader. That meant I had full control. Unlike FFXIII where it seems hell bent on making the game as alienating as it possibly can.

Smarty
07-03-2010, 11:41 AM
Even if you did put gambits on everyone, going into boss battles with your hands tied behind your back would be suicide. And besides nobody is forcing you to play with gambits enabled. You could pause and unpause to your heart's content and give every individual character whatever commands you want. XIII doesn't have the same idea... ;)

Harkus
07-03-2010, 12:13 PM
I find it easier without gambits on my party leader and more fun. Gambits should be in the next one to be honest. XII's battle system was the best thing to happen to FF since Cid.

Techchild
07-04-2010, 02:48 PM
Its a system, it works, get over it.

Harkus
07-04-2010, 03:30 PM
Depends on your definition of works.

Techchild
07-04-2010, 04:03 PM
Depends on your definition of works.

Its works. Personally I don't see how how the battle system affects a story driven game..

Harkus
07-04-2010, 04:06 PM
well, the story is the most important aspect of the game I agree, but suggesting gameplay doesn't affect a video game?

chewey
07-04-2010, 09:00 PM
Its works. Personally I don't see how how the battle system affects a story driven game..

I certainly would not play through a story driven game if the gameplay was horrible. I agree that the battle system in FF13 is fine though (but it isn't as good as 10-2's).

topopoz
07-04-2010, 09:03 PM
I didn't played the game yet, but from the description from many people around it appears to be a Nerfed version of XII system combined with the Classic ATB of previous FF.
That thing about Paradigm appears to be fucking annoying.

Techchild
07-04-2010, 11:53 PM
The gameplay is fine. It did its job and was more understandable than the rest of the game anyhow. I swear though, Its better than XII's battle system, which was borked to the point of being FUBAR

Harkus
07-05-2010, 03:20 PM
XII's is deep, fun and you have control.

XIII's has an auto-win button, you have no control, you can mash and win 90% of fights, if your party leader dies you lose, the crystarium is rubbish etc. etc.

Techchild
07-05-2010, 04:40 PM
XII's is deep, fun and you have control.

XIII's has an auto-win button, you have no control, you can mash and win 90% of fights, if your party leader dies you lose, the crystarium is rubbish etc. etc.

Auto win is better than immortal.

Vrykolas
07-05-2010, 04:46 PM
You can win 90% of fights in ALL the FF games by mashing rhe attack button.

FF13 doesn't try to pretend that the basic enemies are anything other than EXP fodder. The challenge is in getting the higher Star Ranks for the fights, which is easy at first, but soon requires you to actually understand how the game works properly to achieve them.

The system speeds things up, and auto selects commands, but you still have to assign the correct roles, anticipate what role combination you are going to need, then learn how to put it all together to get the best times (important for getting rare items and restoring TPs).

So you miss out the actual selecting Thunder to hit a 'Weak against Thunder' enemy. So what? Is moving a cursor down a menu and pressing X anymore exciting than just pressing X?

The point is that its fast and its fun, whilst still allowing for strategy. It allows charaters to have roles that actually do play differently, rather than just being a slightly different way to cause basic attack damage.

It also allows you to control a squad that is combining a complex set of different activities, without needing to constantly pause or have frozen ATB turns etc, and be able to change all of them on the fly to just as efficiently be doing a completely different set of instructions, providing you foresaw that situation.

I thought it was a fine system. I'm usually someone who only really notices the systems in RPGs when they are really bad (because actual gameplay is not traditionally the strongest suit of RPGs).

But I had great fun with this one, especially wringing every last drop of efficiency out of my team, as I battled through the various post game hunts.

I would say also that I enjoyed FF12's system very much too. Like Harkus, I didn't put Gambits on my leader either, preferring to have complete control. A great system that again comes into its own in the late game hunts, against foes like Zodiark and Yiazmat.

RAMChYLD
07-05-2010, 07:05 PM
I think the battle system is okay, but I'd personally prefer more control (i.e. being able to control all three characters instead of just the main), and I'd definitely prefer the turn-based system used in the older games compared to the new Active Battle system. And give the user ability to switch who gets to be the main party member on the fly using the L1 and R1 buttons.

And the game over as soon as your main member gets KOed? That has to go. The game has to give the player a chance to recover, especially if you have an active healer that knows Raise in your party.

chewey
07-05-2010, 10:33 PM
You can win 90% of fights in ALL the FF games by mashing rhe attack button.

FF13 doesn't try to pretend that the basic enemies are anything other than EXP fodder. The challenge is in getting the higher Star Ranks for the fights, which is easy at first, but soon requires you to actually understand how the game works properly to achieve them.

The system speeds things up, and auto selects commands, but you still have to assign the correct roles, anticipate what role combination you are going to need, then learn how to put it all together to get the best times (important for getting rare items and restoring TPs).

So you miss out the actual selecting Thunder to hit a 'Weak against Thunder' enemy. So what? Is moving a cursor down a menu and pressing X anymore exciting than just pressing X?

The point is that its fast and its fun, whilst still allowing for strategy. It allows charaters to have roles that actually do play differently, rather than just being a slightly different way to cause basic attack damage.

It also allows you to control a squad that is combining a complex set of different activities, without needing to constantly pause or have frozen ATB turns etc, and be able to change all of them on the fly to just as efficiently be doing a completely different set of instructions, providing you foresaw that situation.

I thought it was a fine system. I'm usually someone who only really notices the systems in RPGs when they are really bad (because actual gameplay is not traditionally the strongest suit of RPGs).

But I had great fun with this one, especially wringing every last drop of efficiency out of my team, as I battled through the various post game hunts.

I would say also that I enjoyed FF12's system very much too. Like Harkus, I didn't put Gambits on my leader either, preferring to have complete control. A great system that again comes into its own in the late game hunts, against foes like Zodiark and Yiazmat.
Pretty much this. You can't really complain that FF13's battle system amounts to mashing X when that's always been the case in Final Fantasy games. I think they could have sped up the whole thing without having you control just one character though.

Harkus
07-06-2010, 05:54 AM
You see, I see ther older turn based system as strategy based. Same with FFXII's but with XIII you are involved as little as possible and the game is basically telling you to fuck off, it doesn't want you to play. Oh and say what you like, Auto-Battle is the worst thing in the game, how they thought that was a good idea I'll never know.

Also the crystarium is pretty retarded. "let's do a baby sphere grid that doesn't allow any customisation at all and only has 3 different things on it" - Every FF has a better way to level up than this game.

Techchild
07-06-2010, 06:04 AM
You see, I see ther older turn based system as strategy based. Same with FFXII's but with XIII you are involved as little as possible and the game is basically telling you to fuck off, it doesn't want you to play. Oh and say what you like, Auto-Battle is the worst thing in the game, how they thought that was a good idea I'll never know.

Also the crystarium is pretty retarded. "let's do a baby sphere grid that doesn't allow any customisation at all and only has 3 different things on it" - Every FF has a better way to level up than this game.

FF2 says 'sup?

Harkus
07-06-2010, 06:18 AM
when I said every I meant every ;)

chewey
07-06-2010, 09:31 AM
The crystarium was pretty pointless, yeah.

As for the battle system, I felt that changing jobs required just as much skill as casting whichever spell was required at the time. Both only require some small flicking through some menus.

shade17
07-06-2010, 03:15 PM
Hows about its shit? end of discussion.......

Techchild
07-06-2010, 03:23 PM
Hows about its shit? end of discussion.......

I wouldn't say that.

Vrykolas
07-06-2010, 05:00 PM
I agree with Fight - it takes just as much skill; the game is simply asking you to take command in a different way.

You direct the flow of the battle rather than micromanage every individual move, you plan for what combinations you are going to need, watch to see when you need to change it up etc.

The old games don't do this, IMO. To be good enough to beat certain enemies in the older games, the only strategy that works is simply grinding to be harder, so you take their punishing attacks.

And yes, there is an element of that here of course. But with careful planning, you can punch well above your weight in FF13. Because the game provides defence (via the Sentinel role) as a valid and in fact necessary option, rather than just casting buffs on everyone and hoping for the best.

It's also a game where debuffs really do matter, which is still quite unusual in RPGs. Usually buffs are supreme, but debuffs don't tend to make much difference and/or aren't worth the time to cast, when you could be damaging.

But to get good times (and to simply contend) against the more fearsome foes, you have to incorporate debuffs into your strategy. No swanning around just relying on buffs and a big sword to cure all ills!

Also, the game has a Death spell that is actually as deadly as it sounds! 'Death' has always been a bit of a joke of a spell in previous FFs. Either the enemies are so weak, it wasn't worth casting it, or they were bosses/special side quest creatures and were immune.

In FF13, the Death spell can affect some of the hardest creatures in the game. It's a small chance, but it does open up a variety of strategies to make use of it. It might seem like cheating, but only 1 character has it, and you still need to make sure she can survive long enough to make it work.

I get what you're saying about the old games. It's not like I put the old games on and cry 'I can't play it - it's too damn slow!' Every game has its own 'reality' that you just kind of slip back into naturally, when you play them again (the good ones, anyway).

But they do feel very dated now. RPGs need their gameplay to actually be fun, be more of a plus point and not just 'something that lets you feel you are doing something whilst the story happens'.

As for the single controllable character... well, I'm not convinced you needed to be able to play as more than one, but I was a bit disappointed that Commando/Ravager were the only truly fun roles to actually use.

Playing as a Sentinel, Saboteur, Medic, Synegist etc simply isn't very exciting. So if I have one niggle, it'd probably be that I wish the roles were equally rewarding to play.

Scryer
07-06-2010, 08:59 PM
I think that it is a better system than FFXII's in some ways (for example the separate battle screen instead of fighting in the zone like an mmorpg was a better choice IMO). But it's also worse in other aspects.

Harkus
07-07-2010, 04:30 AM
The old games don't do this, IMO. To be good enough to beat certain enemies in the older games, the only strategy that works is simply grinding to be harder, so you take their punishing attacks

lol, have you even played FFXIII?

Vrykolas
07-07-2010, 04:50 PM
The game regularly caps the amounts of grinding you can do, so I don't know where you're coming from, with that statement.

If you know what you're doing, you can beat enemies who are seriously tougher than you in FF13. The game (eventually) allows for a great deal of grinding, but it's only necessary to beat the ultra tough enemies (i.e the special hunt quest opponents, not the regular bosses).

Compare this with say, Beatrix from FF9. Go into that fight underlevelled and you can pull whatever tricks you like, but if she just decides to use Shock twice in a row, then you're screwed. The only defence is to have enough HP that you survive it - which means grinding.

Returning to FF13, if you just blunder in against opponents like the various velocycles or bosses like the Ch 10 one, you'll get floored. Because the game only allows to level up to a certain degree in each chunk of chapters.

I.e it becomes much harder to just bluff your way through, before long. Either you'll be caught out by attacks that you just can't take without careful planning around the Medic and Sentinel paradigms.

Or else the fights will take forever, as use attack combinations that leave you so exposed, you constantly have to swap for healing, or build chain gagues much too slowly.

If you just use a 'I can win by just pressing X and attacking' mindset, the game will take forever to complete, as even basic fights will go on and on (because the CPU also has access to Sentinel style plays etc).

topopoz
07-07-2010, 05:00 PM
Compare this with say, Beatrix from FF9. Go into that fight underlevelled and you can pull whatever tricks you like, but if she just decides to use Shock twice in a row, then you're screwed. The only defence is to have enough HP that you survive it - which means grinding.


Flashback Alert -.-

Fucking game...

Say Vryk, How does the Paradigm & Crystarium work?

Vrykolas
07-07-2010, 07:34 PM
Well, I'll do my best, but as always, these things are better learned by playing, rather than listening or reading.

Okay, the paradigm system is basically a list you can compile to make certain combinations of roles available to your party in battle. It has 6 slots, allowing for 6 different role builds of a 3 man party.

In each paradigm slot, you assign each party member in your active party a role from the following list:

Commando (fights with combat attacks and non elemental spells),
Ravager (uses powerful elemental spells and ensorcelled combat attacks),
Sentinel (lures enemies to attack them, then blocks them and counters),
Synergist (uses buff spells on the party),
Saboteur (uses debuffs on the enemy),
Medic (heals the party, cures status ailments).

It's important to get the mix right, as you cannot change roles for just one person in battle. You can only change to another of your pre-set role selections for all 3 party members.

This selection can be done any time in battle, you can select any of your 6 paradigms and can shift any number of times and for no cost of any kind.

The first shift of each battle takes a few seconds, but after that, each paradigm shift is near instantaneous.

So the upshot is that paradigms are a set of party builds. They dictate the way your party will fight and the kinds of things it can do and how fast it can do them.

Now, if it was just a case of winning battles by hook or by crook, you'd say 'That's easy! Just have a Commando, Ravager and Sentinel for everyday use, with a Commando, Medic, Sentinel for when you need a bit of healing - you'll never lose!'

The trick is that enemies generally take quite small damage from just unbuffed attacks from two characters. As the game progresses, you will meet certain enemies that pretty much demand you buff your guys up and debuff them, before attacking.

Behemoths for example, heal all their health and adopt a far more aggressive posture when they get to about a quarter HP. Unless you're in a position to kill it quickly, the fight becomes much harder.

So just put down buffs and debuffs first, with a sentinel keeping an eye on things right? Well perhaps, but that takes time and time matters in this game.

Killing enemies quickly gets you a 5 star rating, which affects the quality of items you find and replenishes your TP (basically think of TP as the power bar for super moves in beat em ups).

So you need to kill people fast. That's where the chain gauge comes in. It increases as you attack enemies, decreases when you stop. Higher chain means higher damage with each hit, and if you fill the bar, the enemy gets staggered.

Think of staggers as the game's limit breaks. Instead of you getting a big attack when you get hurt a lot, you get the chance to REALLY nail the enemy if you can keep hurting him for a sustained period - like he reaches his limit and is broken by you!

Staggered enemies take big, big damage from your attacks and Commandos can launch them into the air, rendering them helpless as you air combo them.

The added complication is that Ravagers push the chain bonus up really quick, but make the gauge decrease faster. Commandos deal little chain damage, but slow the rate that the gauge runs out.

So the optimum damage dealing is 2 Ravagers and 1 Commando... which means you have no Sentinels fielding the enemy attacks. It's a quick way to damage enemies, but if they are very powerful, they will slam you in return.

So you need to have a paradigm on hand that you can switch to if things go really bad (i.e 2 Medics and a Sentinel, where you hunker down, heal up quick and then switch back to damaging, before his chain gauge gets too low).

Another point is that certain roles are designed to work better when accompanying other roles. Commandos get a passive abiltiy called Blindside, which lets them deals more damage with their first attack, if the enemy isn't targeting them - easy if your party has a Sentinel on patrol.

Ravagers also have Ravage ability, which lets them do more damage if a Commando is attacking their opponent as well.

Sentinels have Fringeward passive ability, which reduces splash damage to those around them. Very useful if your party have bunched up and are attacking from a stationary position (Ravagers casting spells don't move for example).

Also consider that each character has 3 preferred roles (which are the only ones they can access until late in the game), and even characters with the same role (Commando for example), won't necessarily know the same skills.

So when choosing your party, you will have to account for the fact that certain characters can only offer you certain skills. Because Ravager and Commando are so important, all the characters have one or both.

But there are only 2 Synergists (Hope and Sazh), 2 Saboteurs (Vanille and Fang) and 2 Sentinels (Snow and Fang).

Also consider that whilst Lightning is a Medic, she is more of a Nurse than a full Doctor (i.e she only goes up to Cura, which on its own is nothing like good enough for your healing needs against many enemies).

So when making your paradigm list, you have to take all these factors into account. You need to be able to hit hard and fast, but be able to draw on buffs, debuffs, healing, defence, all whilst killing the enemy as fast as possible.

Also you have to gauge how quickly you need to be able to apply buffs, debuffs and heal. If the enemy can dispel your buffs and is very powerful, you may need 2 Synergists to keep ahead of him. Same with debuffs, if the enemy can dispel those.

Enemies with particularly brutal attacks can mean you need 2 medics minimum, and for the most devastating attacks, you may need people to be Sentinels just to survive.

Here is my Paradigm deck that I use for most situations:
1) Delta Attack - Lightning: Commando, Hope: Ravager, Fang: Sentinel.
Used when the enemy has particularly fearsome attacks that I can't afford to let hit me at will, but I need to keep up a strong offence.

2) Strategic Warfare - Lightning: Commando, Hope: Synergist, Fang: Sentinel.
Used when I want to apply buffs in reletive safety, but don't feel the need to have healing at the ready and/or want to get started on the enemy.

3) Solidarity - Lightning: Commando, Hope: Medic, Fang: Sentinel.
Used when I need to heal and get enemy aggression under control, but I want to keep the chain going and aren't too badly hurt (i.e one Medic is enough). The standard paradigm to 'take the worst off' quickly.

4) Evened Odds - Lightning: Medic, Hope: Synergist, Fang: Saboteur.
Used if the enemy(s) are particularly strong. Lightning heals, as the others set about getting things ready.

5) Combat Clinic - Lighting: Medic, Hope: Medic, Fang: Sentinel.
My 'batten down the hatches!' paradigm, for when the enemy uses his super moves. Also the place to go when you get really hammered and need quick healing.

6) Relentless Assault - Lightning: Ravager, Hope: Ravager, Fang: Commando.
Obviously, the standard paradigm for dealing with the ruck and run. Messes enemies up in double quick time, and all you need unless the enemy can prove they deserve more thought.

This is an effective paradigm list, but not without its drawbacks. With only one Synergist and 1 Saboteur, it can take a while to apply all necessary buffs and debuffs.

It also includes two rather low to average HP characters (Lightning and Hope), meaning that it isn't as hardy as some other party builds.

A lot of people just roll through the game, using Relentless Assault, thinking they're the sh1t and that the game's a piece of piss. They then meet the boss of Chapter 9 and quickly discover that without actually knowing how to play the game properly, they're going to find the rest of the game REALLY hard...

Serves em right, I say!


As for the crystarium:
Despite being similar to FF10's Sphere Grid, the crystarium is not the same for every character. Every character learns skills at a different times (and there are usually always some that a character cannot learn at all, that a different character has instead).

But the basic way the crystarium works is very similar. Acquire APs (called CPs in this game), then buy the various nodes for stat increases and skills.

Each role has a seperate crystarium, but it is fairly linear. I.e the real choice is in which role you spend your CPs in, not how you navigate around it (although there are offshoots now and again).

There are also Role Level crystals seeded throughout, that increase general profciency in that role.

Each crystarium has various stages, which open up as the game progresses (i.e when you hit milestones in the story). This basically places a cap on how much levelling up you can do at any given point. You can still acquire CPs and use them later, though.


Like I say though, the best way to learn is by doing. The game system does become very rewarding, but the game keeps a tight rein on you until the final chapters.

Which sounds bad, but those chapters are very long, and the final third is when all the side quests become available (and can be attempted post game, which is really when they are supposed to be done).

Harkus
07-09-2010, 04:34 AM
Yeah, it's not like people do low-level/starting equipment/no sphere-grid/no materia/no junctioning run throughs of FF games. I would LOVE to see a no crystarium walkthrough.

Topopoz, basically the crystarium is an extremely basic sphere grid, where instead of choosing your own way and being able to power up many aspects of your character, there are only three things on the grid- Hp, strength and magic, with the very occaisonal ability. what really lets it down is how linear it is. Also in the second half of the game enemies give about ten times more crystal points than the start so it's impossible not to fully complete the first three levels of all the primary roles easily.

topopoz
07-09-2010, 08:54 AM
Well, I'll do my best, but as always, these things are better learned by playing, rather than listening or reading.


I know that, but I can't afford a PS3 or an Xbox 360 right now, so I was just curious about the game's battle system.
Paradigm seems like I said before, annoying.
But as you said, I will have to wait & play it myself.

Vrykolas
07-09-2010, 05:31 PM
Maxing out the crystarium takes serious grinding - the enemies give out more CPs, but only the ones in the Tessaracts (which is the very last level), give so much that you can easily max it out.

And again, the issue is one of getting across a complex battle system, without becoming bogged down in stats. Rather, it's all about the roles and how they interact together.

And what stats are you pining for? Strength, HP and Magic are there, as are the various skills and spells. As far as I can see, its only missing Agility and Luck

So there's no Luck spheres - big deal!

You say the sphere grid is worse - I say its a hell of a lot better than spending hours crawling around FFX's grid, levelling up just so I could let my character reach some empty nodes!

It also allows for the idea that the character is busily training up relevant skills. If you want to become better at fighting or magic in FFX, you have to hit the brakes and slowly work your way over to a section of the sphere grid that covers that...

'Damn it all - I run every day and practice my swordplay, but all I got out of it was 'Cura'...'

FF13's Crystarium lets your characters develop in useful and natural ways, at a decent pace. There is also infintely more strategy involved, seeing as how every character cannot be excellent at all the roles.

In FFX and FF12, everyone could learn everything. Meaning that there was little point in taking characters like Fran etc, because she simply had worse stats than the others, and nothing unique.

And FFX was just a complete joke. Characters come on, 'defend' once and earn full EXP?!

chewey
07-09-2010, 10:38 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The Crystarium pretty much served no purpose. All you would do is select a class and then watch a flashy animation play along a straight line every time you wanted to level up. It served no purpose beyond looking pretty, really. I would have preferred a system more Job-like, where you would pick a class and the game would level it up automatically. You'd achieve the exact same thing (as there's no customisation in FF13) and save a bunch of time.

The Sphere Grid of X and the Job system of X-2 were both far better than what was in XIII, in my opinion. I wasn't much of a fan of XII at all, but I'm sure a lot of people prefer what it had as well.

Scryer
07-10-2010, 01:14 AM
in my opinion. I wasn't much of a fan of XII at all, but I'm sure a lot of people prefer what it had as well.

Too tired to make the quote make sense :P .

I acutally think the crystarium and the license board systems were shitty. The spheregrid from X was okay but I would like a recycled job system now since it would be different.

chewey
07-10-2010, 01:18 AM
The 'in my opinion' part is from the previous sentence.

All I said was that I didn't like 12 but I'm sure a lot of people preferred its level system over 13's.

Vrykolas
07-10-2010, 07:59 PM
Well, I did like FF12 very much, but the License Board was pretty awful IMO.

The problem lay primarily in the fact that you were a fool if you didn't just buy up all the enhancement licenses pronto (The stat boost and improvements to shield block etc etc).

There simply wasn't any need to buy any but the most relevant licenses in the other categories. I.e you'd only buy licenses for techniques or spells that you actually had. You'd choose 1 weapon and stick with it, just buying licenses for that, and spending the bulk of your LPs on enchancements.

The crystarium is simply supposed to be a visual representation of how your party is progressing. It gives people a sense of satisfaction to acquire stat boosts, even when they probably won't notice any actual difference in game!

It's the same with levelling up in other games. You get a 'Hey, I've gone up - hurrah!' feeling, even though the actual difference will be almost impossible to spot, unless you memorised your stats on the status screen!

The crystarium means players can look at each role and see roughly how good you they are at it, plus it gives them the 'level up high' on a regular basis. The growing intensity of the noise as you spend thousands of CPs is blatantly there to engender a 'Wow, I'm becoming really powerful now!' feeling.

It's all a big cheat as you say, an elaborate and pretty insubstantial bit of smoke and mirrors. But it served its purpose, seeing as how the complexity lay elsewhere.

People get much more annoyed when there isn't any levelling up, or levelling up feels truly useless. How many times do you go up levels in Mass Effect 2, only to find you can't afford anything, and that actually, you don't really need anything more than you have (i.e a gun)?

chewey
07-10-2010, 08:32 PM
That could very well be the case for a lot of people, but I just felt like I was wasting my time while in the Crystarium. I didn't see much of a point in all the time it took to level up when it was really no more complex than what was in FF1.

Harkus
07-11-2010, 04:21 AM
Um, no the sphere grid had HP, luck, speed, strength, magic, magic defense, defense and I think MP plus LOADS of ability slots. The crystarium has Hp, magic and strength and for each role there are only like 5 abilities. It's pathetic. I could have made a better levelling up system.

Aniki
07-11-2010, 07:00 AM
You say the sphere grid is worse - I say its a hell of a lot better than spending hours crawling around FFX's grid, levelling up just so I could let my character reach some empty nodes!

It wouldn't be different if you reach an empty node and the next one a +3 attack node, or a +1 attack node and next a +2 attack node. So is acquiring an AP point and spending in on an empty node is really that much of a problem that's worth crying about?


It also allows for the idea that the character is busily training up relevant skills. If you want to become better at fighting or magic in FFX, you have to hit the brakes and slowly work your way over to a section of the sphere grid that covers that...

The sphere grid is designed so that if you want all the powerful spells in the early in the game you need to hit the brakes, but you're NOT forced in going the path you're given in order to increase your characters certain stats you want. All you need is to have a plan on how you want your character to advance and a teleport sphere which you can acquire early in the game.

Another unique aspect of FF X's Sphere grid is that your black mage could acquire the Firaga, Blizaga, Thundaga and Waterga skipping the Fira, Blizarra, Thundara and Watera spells. You won't find that in any other FF game and does FF XIII's Crystalium system have anything like that?


'Damn it all - I run every day and practice my swordplay, but all I got out of it was 'Cura'...'

If you run everyday and practice your swordplay, then you're already strong enough for monsters to seriously damage you for you to use it. Also, the 'Cure' spell is enough for half of the game, and for the next half, depending on the way you level up your characters, other healing methods are available like al bhed potions for instance. So like I already said, you don't need to go that straight line. You can skip 'Cura' and go for 'Curaga', 'Regen' and 'Holy' if you exploit the sphere grid properly.

Vrykolas
07-11-2010, 05:02 PM
Fight - We just have to accept that gaming is more superficial these days. My point is that I think they mixed the need for this well with depth of gameplay.

And again, most critics (and people here, judging by the poll) seem to like the battle system, even if they don't care for the rest of it.

Aniki:
Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is that the grid was terrible in FFX!

It took far too long to manage, considering that every character got full EXP from every fight. All you had to do was bring them on for 2 seconds, and they were entitled to a full share.

I spent more time crawling about on that grid, than I did playing!

And what on earth was the point of empty nodes? Their sole use if memory serves, is to let you add big plus spheres, particularly near the end for when you are going up against Dark Eidolons etc.

But that doesn't excuse the fact that for most of the game, they are simply useless progressions - stepping stones that you feel cheats you out of your exp, just to get where you want to go.


Harkus - tons of abilities, eh? Well each crystarium role has about 12 skills contrary to your bizzarre claim of 5 (passive skills apparently just don't count for you), and there are 6 roles. That makes a lot of skills.

FFX is like any other RPG - the characters are only different in terms of exactly how they deal basic damage. Tidus and Wakka against flying, Auron against Shelled, Yuna and Lulu against elemental etc etc.

And you are losing what - Magic Defence, MP, Luck and Agility is it?

Consider that FF13 makes extensive use of accessories that give you MP, Magic defence etc.


Anyway, I said my piece. I liked the gameplay and indeed liked the game. If you didn't, then so be it.

Aniki
07-11-2010, 05:55 PM
I'm starting to get the picture. So if FF X's sphere grid lets you customize your characters stats and abilities the way you want (but in order to do that you need to use your head), then it's terrible. But since FF XIII's crystarium is just a linear progression with the illusion of choice, then it's good.
Somebody, please hit me with a brick several times so I could have such backwards thinking too.

Vrykolas
07-11-2010, 07:19 PM
So the bit where you can choose which roles to assign to people and how they interact together, just doesn't matter, right?

It doesn't matter that they get different skills, so even people who are using non-preferable roles can access powerful abilities that the others don't get?

The fact you have to spread your CPs among your roles to make sure you are proficient in them all, doesn't matter?

None of this requires you to use your head, because the only thing that matters is that each individual role has a roughly linear progression?

Get real.

In FFX, the roles are pretty much set, no matter what you do. Customise Lulu and Yuna all you want - they still rock at magic and still sucks at pretty much everything else.

The characters all have clearly defined roles that they are good at. The Sphere Grid doesn't alter that - it's just how effectively you can boost their skills in those areas, or how much time (and EXP) you waste.

And how much strategic knowhow do you really need, when you can call any of your party into battle at any time, change weapons?


The point that I was making to Fight was that times have moved on, and games must also do so. Hardcore stat levelling doesn't win you any votes from the mainstream these days, nor does it endear you to the critics.

But even without that, I found FFX's Sphere Grid to be very far from something that required you to use your brain. It was in fact a no-brainer, but it just took so much time.

There were several characters I barely used, but I was hardly going to turn down free EXP for them, when all I had to do was come on and make them defend once.


And on that note, I take my leave. There are many things I can put up with, but talking of FFX is not among them!

chewey
07-11-2010, 10:07 PM
Vrykolas: I was fine with the battle system itself, I just thought the Crystarium was pointless. I don't think I have anything more to add to the argument now though.

Smarty
07-12-2010, 01:03 AM
The point that I was making to Fight was that times have moved on, and games must also do so. Hardcore stat levelling doesn't win you any votes from the mainstream these days, nor does it endear you to the critics.

I respect your opinion about FFX, but what does this have to do with anything?

Vrykolas
07-14-2010, 08:04 PM
My point there Smarty, was that JRPGs have been declining in popularity in the west (only FF ever really makes it into the Top 40 here in Britain, and its probably much the same in the USA).

The mainstream critics have also usually not been a friend to the JRPG, citing repetitive and overwrought storylines, lack of gameplay, huge running times etc etc.

It was clear that SE wanted a game that would woo the mainstream gaming public, and not just rely on the name alone. And they also wanted to challenge many of the conventions that the critics expected and usually roll their eyes at.

In fact, despite fan criticisms, FF12 was favourably received by much of the critics (its metacritic score is just as good as that of the other FF), and much of this was down to them applauding SE for at least trying to do something different.

So they wanted to try and keep that goodwill and build some momentum from it.

The Crystarium was therefore designed (IMO) to be a 'quick and dirty' means of levelling up. Something that looked nice, but wasn't a hardcore, ultra customisable characters kind of thing.

Because that tends to put casual gamers off. (Mass Effect 2 did something similar, with its levelling up, compared to the first game, being far speedier and less substantial).

The whole game is a trade-off between being easy and pacey enough to jump in and not overwhelm casual gamers with stats, and complexity, against the need for a deep and involving gameplay system, that would answer the 'RPGs have no gameplay' critics.

Basically, the game only realises it full complexity in a gameplay sense from Ch 11 onwards. Because by then, casual gamers will have stopped playing anyway.

My comment was that if the sphere grid had been as customisable and complex as some here wanted it to be, it would have been much more difficult to navigate quickly, too off-putting for non RPG fanatics.

It's a sad thing, but Jap producers are having to temper their unique way of making games, with the need to make a profit and stay relevant to the bulk of gamers.


But as I already said, I do agree with Fight on this - the crystarium is just style over substance. He's not wrong when he says it feels a little pointless at times. But I also think that it doesn't detract from the game's general complexity in terms of gameplay.

FF13 (and FFX-2 whose system it is based on), have much better and deeper actual gameplay than most RPGs.

And I also think trying to keep the mainstream happy is something you just have to grin and bear. Their money is important to the future success of the series.

So if that's the price the piper demands, then so be it. The game amply made up for it in other departments.

gravydude
07-15-2010, 01:50 PM
XIII's battle system is bland, has no skill required, just press 'autobattle' (or whatever the command was, autocommand, i dont know but you know what i mean right?)and you get a set of commands that best suite the situation, i played the game pressing 'autobattle' i think thats one of the things i found most dissapointing, granted some battles were good when you are constantly switching paradigms to best suite the situation but then its just a case of 'autobattle' when your in the next paradigm no matter what it was.

people bitch about XII's battle system saying 'your not even playing the game' or 'sitting their twiddling the analog sticks' but at least you made the decision to place a certain gambit in a certain order. XII's battle system was far better than XIII's IMO, i liked the licence board as well, am i the only one i hav'nt seen anyone say they like the licence board?

topopoz
07-15-2010, 02:35 PM
i liked the licence board as well, am i the only one i hav'nt seen anyone say they like the licence board?

I love the Licence Board, it's FUN!, Also I wouldn't mind if it was bigger XD.

gravydude
07-16-2010, 04:38 AM
Yeah that would be cool, or if it was different in some way for each character. I plan on giving the IZJS (english patch version) a go soon, their is 12 different licence boards on that for 12 different jobs, should be good XD

topopoz
07-16-2010, 11:50 AM
Yeah that would be cool, or if it was different in some way for each character. I plan on giving the IZJS (english patch version) a go soon, their is 12 different licence boards on that for 12 different jobs, should be good XD

I wouldn't made it different in every sense of the word, just the same board for every character, with the pieces ordered differently, If you know what I mean.

The only thing that I don't like about the IZJS is that, there are Jobs... I prefer to have the whole licence board for myself to customize the characters the way I prefer. The rest is of that version is great. If you can pass me a link with the translation of that FFXII, send me a PM please.

gravydude
07-16-2010, 03:05 PM
Yeah i know what you mean about being able to customize the characters the way you want, i like that. Ive not played the game for well over 2 years, i completed near 100% last time i finished it, 3 times nearly, im just thinking the IZJS will be a good change from the norm.

When i found out they made an IZJS but it was only japanese i was gutted, then i stumbled accross a video on youtube not to long ago with the english version on it i was well chuffed, thought 'yeah i'll give that a go' i had to find it, so i searched around using google, came accross it pretty quickly lol

Lyrically_N_Gaged
07-17-2010, 10:45 PM
I like the battle system.

Although I'd prefer to be able to control all the characters, being able to change paradigms is cool enough. Throughout the beginning of the game I hated it because I couldn't change lead character.

But it's a good system, I wouldn't ever want to see it again though.

ThePoPGod
07-27-2010, 03:33 PM
I liked the battle system. that's the least of the problems FF13 had. The world is what sucked for me. 12 had a huge world with shit tons to do where 13 didn't and there is no reason to play it again. It might as well have been an adventure game for all the LV had to matter.

alexdwsn12
08-02-2010, 12:49 AM
Its great. But it feels like FF X-2 where I just press the button once, because it works by itself.

Timo8467
08-22-2010, 03:11 PM
I really liked the battle system, much better than FFXII imo.
Slightly reminds me of the one in FFX-2

Vrykolas
08-22-2010, 05:43 PM
Hardly surprising, since it's directed by the same guy who directed FFX-2. He definately has a unique style, for better or worse.

aznvietguy411
08-22-2010, 11:47 PM
Yeah honestly I'll have to say that I really do like it. It's an upgrade from the Gambit system. The only gripe I have is the fact that you can't control the characters while fighting. I mean the battle system does get more difficult seeing how you have to micro manage the characters while fighting, and sometimes timing is key. Like knowing when to switch paradigms, or when to heal the party. But again it's new, every other FF comes out with a new battle system that we either love or hate.

DreamGoddessLindsey
09-11-2010, 04:22 AM
I absolutely LOVED the battle system for this game. It's a shame we'll only see it in this one game. I wouldn't mind them keeping it around for several more games. Not like they need a new battle system every single game.

Smash Genesis
12-02-2010, 09:56 PM
FFXIII should have been an action RPG. There'd still be a battle screen, but it would be an action RPG.

Zylicyde
12-07-2010, 08:06 PM
It was like nothing I ever played before, so it was a nice change up from the usual turn-based RPGs. I'm not saying change is good or change is bad; sometime it's just nice to have a change. I just enjoyed the game.

Hynad
12-08-2010, 09:08 AM
I liked the battle system once you get 1/3 or so in the game.
What I would have done differently is to include Gambit settings to make it possible to have an ounce of input on the supporting characters' behavior.
I liked that the battle system made things fast paced, but I didn't like that it stripped me of a lot of control over my party.

TuxSky
12-16-2010, 08:48 PM
I freaking love the battle system. It's my 2nd favorite behind X-2's, I just wish you could have controlled all the party members. I wish they had let you move around though, since the game has AoE attacks.

Dragoncurry
12-19-2010, 09:39 AM
Tuxsky, if they did what you suggested, it would also be my favorite. I however hated it, as I hate most gambit systems. I don't like scrub AIs controlling my characters.

CC
12-19-2010, 01:20 PM
I don't mind the battle system, but there's many more that are superior that I can say I like.

spheregrid94
01-12-2011, 08:21 PM
WELL..After reading the thread I'll say I really enjoyed the battle system later in the game. I really hated not being able to play as others but I really enjoyed hope healing me whenever i shifted paradigm :) i would have died against many bosses without a doubt had he not been an auto healer. It's more realistic and modern in my opinion, I really like the game. The only thing bugging me a bit is the lack of sidequests. otherwise it's probably my favourite rivaling FFX. The sphere grid /crystarium thing was simple and fun though I Would have prefered levels in this kinda game js (:

Kusanagi Fire
01-29-2011, 06:30 PM
The battle system was okay. Like Basch said, there are many more that are superior. The stagger / break system was fun (launching enemies into the air and attacking them never got old), but I felt the paradigm shift mechanic held the game back. Every character is forced into 3 specific roles (more or less) and there's no way to develop a character to be something else. Also, I found the AI to be lacking in certain areas (why is Hope casting Enfire before Haste? why do two commandos attack different enemies rather than gang up on the staggered enemy?). For the most part, the AI was smart and populated the "Auto Attack" with proper commands, but I wish I could have tweaked the AI a bit like XII's Gambits. It also would've been nice if I could position characters like Star Ocean. Crystarium, in the end, wasn't as flexible as the Sphere Grid, unfortunately.

snaek
02-14-2011, 03:23 PM
I think Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw described it perfectly by saying: "Final Fantasy XIII makes it very clear that it would prefer to involve the player as little as possible".

sowrie to be blunt/harsh, but if you the battle system sucks, you either:
1) didn't get too far into the game when the tactical options start opening up (problem of slow game progression, not the battle system itself)
2) you suck at it (i can't really blame you, its quite a complex battle system)
3) you're doing auto-battle (aka you're doing it wrong)

of course it does have a few faults (questionable ai and a mess if a ui), but these are not totally gamebreaking.

i can see the battle system not being everyone's cup of tea though--it is far from traditional. yes, a lot of people like controlling their whole team, but a lot of new options and new mechanics are introduced by removing this control. not being able to control everyone is the only reasonable explanation i can see as to why someone would honestly dislike this battle system--that or they prefer non-atb slower paced battle systems.

that being said, ff13 has one of the most -involving- battle systems ever. the new atb system requires micro'ing with precise timing to be great at it. however, of course you don't need to be great at the battle system to beat the game, but thats besides the point. i'd really love if there was some sort of multiplayer pvp battles with this system, which would shut up some of the naysayers that you can mash x to autowin. that or a new dlc that introduces extremely tough monsters and disable the use of auto-battle to see if they still think the "battle system" is easy.

tldr; the game itself doesn't do justice to this amazing battle system.

Vrykolas
02-14-2011, 06:23 PM
Actually, I'd say you do have to be pretty good with the battle system to beat some of the bosses (specifically Barthendelous in Ch9, Raines and Orphan's first form).

You can bluff your way through Chapter 1-9 (up to the boss anyway), but after that? If you're still just 'press X to win' from Ch 10 onwards, you're liable to get creamed. At the very least, the battles will take forever.

Aniki
02-19-2011, 12:27 PM
sowrie to be blunt/harsh, but if you the battle system sucks, you either:
1) didn't get too far into the game when the tactical options start opening up (problem of slow game progression, not the battle system itself)
2) you suck at it (i can't really blame you, its quite a complex battle system)
3) you're doing auto-battle (aka you're doing it wrong)

of course it does have a few faults (questionable ai and a mess if a ui), but these are not totally gamebreaking.

i can see the battle system not being everyone's cup of tea though--it is far from traditional. yes, a lot of people like controlling their whole team, but a lot of new options and new mechanics are introduced by removing this control. not being able to control everyone is the only reasonable explanation i can see as to why someone would honestly dislike this battle system--that or they prefer non-atb slower paced battle systems.

that being said, ff13 has one of the most -involving- battle systems ever. the new atb system requires micro'ing with precise timing to be great at it. however, of course you don't need to be great at the battle system to beat the game, but thats besides the point. i'd really love if there was some sort of multiplayer pvp battles with this system, which would shut up some of the naysayers that you can mash x to autowin. that or a new dlc that introduces extremely tough monsters and disable the use of auto-battle to see if they still think the "battle system" is easy.

tldr; the game itself doesn't do justice to this amazing battle system.

It's funny how you missed the post above mine which literally bashes the battle system and decided to flame mine, but then again the way how a brain with a size of a fly turd works is still a mystery to me.
The auto-battle you keep pointing is no different than mashing X in other FF's. Even if you don't use the auto-battles are still repetitive and get boring as you advance. The boss battles are nothing special either. They're only difficult if you haven't maxed your crystarium. If you done that, all you got to do then is buffs yourself before battle begins, cast libra to check for weaknesses, and all the tactics boil down to paradigm shift.
FF XIII has flaws just like any other FF title and I don't need some twat telling me that it's battle system is almost perfect when the unreliable AI combined with limited controls (which is what I pointed out my post) tell me otherwise.

snaek
02-19-2011, 10:51 PM
^butt hurt much?

i refuse to comment on the post above yours because it has no substance; all it says is "i dun liek this gaem". yours on the other hand quotes an opinion (which everyone is entitled to), based on a fact that is untrue. the battle system is one of the most involving, if not -the most- involving battle system of the main ff games, -if- and only -if- you let it be (not using auto-battle helps).


The auto-battle you keep pointing is no different than mashing X in other FF's.
auto-battle horribly different then mashing 'x' in previous ff games. mashing 'x' to win in earlier games usually only worked when either your characters were overpowered or the monsters you were up against were weak. auto-battle allows you to mash 'x' to win in a lot more circumstances, i.e. supposedly harder battles.

if i were to speculate, i would say that squeenix included auto-battle because the game was too hard for the casual player without it and they wanted to appeal to a mainstream audience. they're mistake however was not only did they not make auto-battle a removable option for those that don't want it in their menu, they made it the default option for all players starting a new game.

using auto-battle in rpg games is almost as bad as using auto-aim in fps games.


i just don't think you've put in any time or effort into learning this game. in your other posts you rag heavily on the crystarium system:

Another unique aspect of FF X's Sphere grid is that your black mage could acquire the Firaga, Blizaga, Thundaga and Waterga skipping the Fira, Blizarra, Thundara and Watera spells. You won't find that in any other FF game and does FF XIII's Crystalium system have anything like that?
you do realize that you can skip a lot of fira/bilzzara/thundara and go straight to firaga/blizaga/thudaga in ffxiii with the crystarium system too, right? not with all characters though (i.e. you can't with hope, but you can with vanille, sazh, etc) for example, with lightning, i skipped most -ra spells and went straight for the -strike abilities (which btw, some of her -strike abilities are also optional). the crystarium system may not be as complex as other systems, but it is nowhere near linear. at least not until you beat the last boss and unlock the final lvl10 crystarium (post-game content). but this may likely be due to the fact that by this point they expect everyone to grind a ton of cp and max everything anyways.

ffxiii was not meant to be grinded until post-game. if you grind this game early on, obviously you'll have way more cp than you'll know what to do with and you'll think the crystarium is linear because you maxed everything when the game didn't really intend for you to do so. if this is how your game experience went, i guess i can understand why you feel the way you feel.


p.s. ffx and ffx-2 are my favourite games in the series and i think they have the best battle systems overall (especially ffx-2). so don't give me this crap by putting words into my mouth saying i said the "battle system is almost perfect". re-read my op, i clearly state that the system does have flaws.


it's kind of ironic (if my speculations are correct); squeenix deems ffxiii's battle system as too involving and so they implement "auto-battle". the masses then only use "auto-battle" and deem ffxiii's battle system as not involving enough.

Dragoncurry
02-22-2011, 11:41 AM
2) you suck at it (i can't really blame you, its quite a complex battle system)

Comments like these make it so hard for me to resist just trolling idiots. THE GAME ISN'T HARD. The battle system isn't fucking complex. Stop thinking you're a certain caliber of awesome player for doing something everyone else is doing. You're giving the battle system way more credit than it deserves. No one is doubting that you like it. We're contesting that the battle system is gimmicky and clusterfucky in design, not whether it's gimmicky and clusterfucky to you.


that being said, ff13 has one of the most -involving- battle systems ever. the new atb system requires micro'ing with precise timing to be great at it.

Do you even know what microing is? Managing presets is not the same as micromanaging individual units. Think of it like controlling Unit Groups in an RTS versus individual units. Being forced to Buff or stay in "BUFF MODE" so your saboteur can finish debuffing is not MICROMANAGING. It's a fucking retarded design. Stop saying things you have no idea about.



PS. (NOT RELATED)


but then again the way how a brain with a size of a fly turd works is still a mystery to me

If you have a brain this small, it means your body is also equally small at which point your life span is very small and you do things really really fast to compensate for your smaller life span.

That's why fruit flies have sex really fast. If your brain was even smaller (aka a fly turd), you would have sex at a even faster rate. I think.

snaek
02-22-2011, 12:39 PM
Do you even know what microing is? Managing presets is not the same as micromanaging individual units. Think of it like controlling Unit Groups in an RTS versus individual units. Being forced to Buff or stay in "BUFF MODE" so your saboteur can finish debuffing is not MICROMANAGING. It's a fucking retarded design. Stop saying things you have no idea about.

macro'ing is managing the pardigms and choosing the correct paradigm at the correct time. micro'ing is using the correct skills within a paradigm at the correct time. i'm going to assume again that your using auto-battle which again pretty much takes the whole micro concept out of the battle system.

i'll use a previous example i wrote in an earlier thread. you want to build the chain gauge, great, you choose ravagers--thats macro'ing. now, ffxiii has subtleties on various factors that affect chain building, for example stringing different skills into combos. you can't just spam fire->fire->fire (well you can, but it won't build the chain gauge as fast); therefore, using fire->blizzard->water is effecting chaining and effective micro'ing. mashing 'x' when 'fire' is selected is a lot easier than manually navigating through the menus for various skills (especially since ffxiii uses atb). but again, this whole concept goes out the window if you just use auto-battle.


THE GAME ISN'T HARD.
i agree. but its not because the battle system is not complex. rather, the monsters generally do not provide a great challenge granted you have the right team setup (good macro'ing). using my above example of spamming fire->fire->fire vs effective chain micro'ing: most monsters will still die if you spam fire, so effective chain micro'ing or even micro'ing in general is not necessary to beat this game.

it doesn't mean the battle system itself is not complex--it just means that you only need a basic understanding of it to beat the game.

you seem knowledgeable about rts, so i'll ask a related rts question: starcraft2 campaign mode is incredibly easy and i can beat it with my eyes closed...does that mean its game mechanics are simple?

Dragoncurry
02-24-2011, 11:42 AM
therefore, using fire->blizzard->water is effecting chaining and effective micro'ing.

This might come as a surprise, but if you choose fire, blizzard, water then it will remain fire blizzard water for auto battle for future turns. Which nullifies the fact that you have to keep micro'ing.

---------- Post added at 12:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------


you seem knowledgeable about rts, so i'll ask a related rts question: starcraft2 campaign mode is incredibly easy and i can beat it with my eyes closed...does that mean its game mechanics are simple?

Yeah the game is easy and the mechanics are simple. It may be difficult to beat a Asian Starcraft Battlemaster trained in a Korean Starcraft Deathcamp but that has nothing to do with the complexity of the mechanics. If you watch a documentary about it, professional starcraft players state that after a certain point in their "training", it comes down to who can click faster (at top top levels). Some of people who play slower prefer games like Warcraft 3, where the slower speed is more forgiving. It has nothing to do with the difficulty of mechanics. At one point, they all know "how it works and how best to do it." The level of complexity Starcraft brings is inherent in different tactical approaches different players bring, not in the design in itself.

This comparison would be more relevant if FF13 had some online component where you fight other players, but the complexity in the battle system doesn't exist to the extent you say it is. Auto battle covers your "micro" after you choose the subset of abilities once.

ultima_tales
02-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Oh! The battle system was really enjoyable actually, it's quite simple, but the type of effort is different from any other battle system I've played so far, I wish it was more complicated though, because there is only this feeling of a horizontal difficulty; based on how you level up and fight the monsters using the status ailments. Whereas a vertical difficulty of could be worked on such as:

- More timing related attacks to defeat a foe.
- Move combinations between the characters to defeat foes. ( in the way of Suikoden 2; would be great, but I think ff9 has some idea in that with Vivi and Steiner)
- Vanille in armor; :3 ( nothing to do but; oh well)

I'm sad the characters don't have enough special moves, it feel like they are missing, and the eidolons are step down from ff12 espers I daresay, but the battle system is really good in ff13 nothing to say.

starrin
03-30-2011, 12:11 AM
dont worry about these scalywags i loved it .. bhetter than that shit 12 worse game in history

Derimu
04-11-2011, 12:28 PM
The battle system was alright. I liked the olds chool just back and forth stuff more though, rather then this new stuff. And it can get exceptionally frustrating when your character just starts to randomly circle a mob or boss.

Crysta
06-09-2011, 08:55 PM
I have to admit i have a hard time remembering FF12's battle system. But what i can remember is that it seemed chaotic and hard to follow at times. Now with FF13 i love the paradigm shift. Having played the Star Ocean series and being frustrated by healers who didn't do their jobs very well i love the way things work in FF13. Its like the characters have a brain and they know how to fight. I've noticed that the paradigm system works a lot like a military squad or platoon. Each person focuses on using their strengths to aid the team as a whole and win the battle. When the situation changes each member of the team adjusts and works out their new roles easily, relying on the other person to get in step and help.

Darthnicolas
06-26-2011, 04:28 AM
The battle system is just too automatic,that's what I hate about it.If you were given more freedom,to move your character for example,it would've been better.Now you simply press X and you just watch a running movie.Only a few fights require you to actually pay attention,switch Paradigms etc.The rest are just "Switch to the appropriate Team/Paradigm,and press X till the enemies die".

Can't say I didn't enjoy the game,but with a better battle system,I'd enjoy it for many more hours,now when I play I just tap X and I do something else so as not to get bored.

Mercenary Raven
06-26-2011, 11:00 AM
I liked FF13's battle system to some extent.... I thought it was great and it was something different than the usual. The problem is... enemies were actually pretty hard to me (the first time around) because some of the little things kept taking me by surprise. Namely, before you got -ga spells (and sometimes -ra spells) you ended up fighting large groups of enemies (I'm talking in that portion post-Barthandelus pre-Gran Pulse) that could take you down if you weren't careful... And the first time through the Behemoth took me by surprise when it stood up (thought it wasn't as hard the second or third time)... the problem is that after the initial couple times you find a strategy and you win.

For the couple hours it took, finding a nice/consistent strategy for killing Adamantoises was quite fun. I found something and it's boring. Weapon Customization was too slow in my opinion, as well, on that note... especially when you needed Trapezohedrons to get to tier 3.

XSleepyPanda
06-27-2011, 05:36 AM
The battle system is pretty nice in my opinion. Instead of doing one attack per attack bar completing it's gauge, it's up to 6 hits. Makes the game atleast more real time. It's not completely turn based like Final Fantasy X which is ideally what I hear most people wants. Only thing I find a bit silly is that characters can completely whiff moves. But monsters are able to whiff as well so I can't complain lol.

franzito
06-27-2011, 07:44 AM
It's kinda interesting IMO changing roles to achieve a balanced battle's pace instead of a menu driven one.
As always, FF series tries to keep it fresh.

rgordon82
07-11-2011, 07:57 AM
Not really. It's boring as my boyfriend says.

Roxas20
07-20-2011, 12:04 AM
It's a bit redundant if you ask me. They need to be a bit more creative with the battle system in FFXIII-2, in my opinion.

Olde
07-20-2011, 03:33 AM
Don't know why the poll is closed. Anyway, I HATED the battle system. It was pure, unadulterated shit. So, because I'm bored and completely fed up with this game, I'm going to try to list all the reasons I hated the battle system.

1. You're only in control of one character. Enough fucking said, this is inexcusable. I see what they were trying to go for, which was an extension of FFXII's gambit system. But you can't program the gambits. At least in XII, you could input commands for your characters. But this wouldn't be so bad, were it not for my second point.

2. The characters of whom you're not in control are fucking retarded. The first point MIGHT be forgivable were it not for this fact. Now yes, it's true that your allies will exploit elemental weaknesses when you've used Libra on an enemy. But when you've got a medic, synergist, sabateur, or sentinel, they do shite moves. For instance, let's say I want to keep Light as my Commando and Vanille as my Medic. Well, Light gets decimated, down to 100HP, so I expect Vanille to use three or four Cures on Light. But no, Vanille uses Cura because Hope happens to be right next to her, and he's down to only half his health. Well, Cura heals Light for 153 HP, but then she gets hit again for 400 points and dies. What the fucking hell?

3. If your party leader dies, it's game over. Wait, what the fuck? Your party leader doesn't do anything except call out the paradigm formations. He/she doesn't tell the other combatants what moves to use. In fact, if you battle without any paradigm shifts at all, it's impossible to tell who's the party leader. In every other game, the party can survive without the party leader, but this game makes no fucking sense. Let's take an example. Your party leader is Lightning, and your other party members are Vanille (as Medic) and Snow (as Sentinel). So your Lightning character is a Commando and is up against a ton of enemies who all target her and KO her before Vanille can Cure her. So because Light's the party leader it's game over. But hold on, wouldn't Vanille just use Raise? So, like, they just throw up their hands in defeat whenever the party leader dies, instead of bringing someone else from the, I don't know, other three playable characters you have with you (see point 4)??? I just don't get it. This was a terrible idea.

4. You can't switch allies in battle. Seriously, why not? I mean, once you have all six members available, you're traveling together. There's no reason you can't switch a member out if you realize that you need a synergist when you haven't prepared for one. This is hindered even worse by the fact that some of your allies have different abilities (see point 9). So if you're up against a new enemy and the enemy is only weak against Fire magic and none of your party members have Firaga, even if they've completed every job class, you have to start all over. This was obviously a reaction against the criticism of XII that every character could have every ability. But that's no reason to make the player have to try over and over different combinations. I can't remember a single RPG that would actually let you try the battle over again. That's just laziness on the part of Square-Enix. Let me fucking battle the enemy and give me the fucking tools I need to figure out their weaknesses and let me figure out the best way to beat them, without starting the fuck over!!

4. You can't physically move any of your characters toward or away from the enemy(ies). Seriously, sometimes your allies (even or party leader) will just walk into enemy attacks. If there are ranged attacks, at least give me the ability to move away from them. Jebus. Intolerable.

5. There are only 6 possible setups available and you can't change them mid-battle. That's right, rather than most of the other Final Fantasies where you could mix and match any job classes you wanted into any party to fit the current situation, no, you have to figure it out BEFORE you enter battle. How does that make ANY sense? How does Lightning lose the ability to turn into a Ravager when your other two characters change classes? What the shit is that piece of fuck?

6. It's hard to actually see how much damage you're doing. Maybe I'm the only one, but I will proudly admit to an inability to see actually how much damage I'm doing. This is because of three reasons, the first being that the number that shows the damage is in a dull gray; the second being that the damage indicator SCROLLS UP to the actual number (so you're actually seeing a lot of numbers for each hit); and the third being that each character is hitting so hard and so fast that the battle screen becomes a mess of numbers, so much so that I can't tell if I'm doing a lot of damage or not. The cause for this last reason is that every attacking character has multiple ATB guages that they use for each attack. So if you have a Commando and two Ravagers who all have 4 guages and all attack at the same time (which, inevitably, they will), you're seeing 12 damage indicators at different locations on the same enemy at the same time. And I don't care if you're Stephen fucking Hawking, the brain can't process all those numbers simultaneously, let alone add all of them up. There are similar instances of this in X-2 and XII, but at least there, everyone had only one ATB guage, so it was manageable. Here, it's total chaos.

7. The game doesn't tell you the rules for determining the recovery speed of the stagger guage. Sometimes the stagger guage takes a long time to go back down to zero, and other times, it just flies down. For me, it seems to go down faster when a Ravager attacks, and slower when a Commando attacks. Why is that? Is it harder to recover from a sword up your ass than a fireball in your dick?

8. The rating system is pure shit. The game seems to care only about the speed at which you beat each battle, nothing else. It seems that the only thing this game values is how fast you can beat the enemies. It doesn't reward experimentation, creativity, or anything other than how fast you can get out of the battle screen. And there's a rating for every single fucking battle. And when you finally get to a battle where you get 0 stars because you didn't anticipate three assholes spamming Bazooka on one character that you had to revive, the sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach that "you should have done better," only to be rewarded with no good items, is not only discouraging but completely unnecessary. And from my playing, I've come to realize that the amount of stars doesn't actually seem to correlate to the spoils from battle. I've had numerous battles with five stars where I get nothing, and battles with one or zero stars where I get rare items. So what's the point of the rating system anyway? I'll tell you the point: to make you feel like you want to play, to give you a reason to get through the battles. While in the end, there really is no reason at all. But if they're going to reward the speed at which you get through it, I'm inclined to agree: I hate the battle system so much, I WANT to get out of that battle screen as fast as possible. Fucking jerks.

9. Not all characters can learn the same moves. Even once everybody finishes their Crystarium, not all characters know every single ability for each job class. What the fuck?! So inevitably, with your limitation of 6 Paradigms (see point 5) and the inability to switch party members (see point 3), you're going to have to sacrifice some abilities for others. And you will never know which ones you'll need and which you should sacrifice prior to a new battle. As I said before in point 4, this was a reaction toward the hostility agasint FFXII's License Board, where every character basically became carbon copies of each other, once they knew the same abilities. But can you think of a Final Fantasy game where your FINAL characters end up with different abilities, where some of them know Haste and others don't? I sure can't. It's bullshit. Just a technicality to make things artificially difficult without adding any real challenge. And that's a horse's asshole in any game.

10. There's no WAIT feature. I can't remember a Final Fantasy where you can't pause before you take a turn to figure out your move, even if your enemies ATB guage is recharged once you're through with it. And I'm not one to frequently use the Wait feature in other installments, but here I might actually have to because I can't read the paradigm setups, analyze the situation, and determine the most effective battle configuration for taking down an enemy while I'm still getting pummeled. And there are new moves in this game that I have to read the description for before I determine whether I should use it or not. I don't want to have to leave the game speed on Slow because it's too slow for ordinary battles.

11. You can't change Weapons or Accessories mid-battle. This was even a feature in X and XII. What if my weapon is healing the enemy? What if I realize I need an accessory that can give me more health, or that can boost my magic? I can't even do that? Holy Hell, Batman!

There are probably more, but I'll leave it with this for now. Admittedly, there were a lot of things I did like. For instance, I liked the idea that you could see the enemies on screen before taken to the battle field. I liked the concept of using the ATB guage instead of MP. And I liked the fact that you start off with full health for every battle. I also didn't really have much of a problem with Auto-Battle and the Repeat functions (although with Auto-Battle, it really makes me question why I'm actually playing the game). But the rest of the battle system's flaws just killed it for me.

Vrykolas
07-20-2011, 09:47 PM
Well, I don't agree with you, on practically any of that. Most of your complaints use 'I don't like the way it does things like this', as a pretext to say it *shouldn't* do them that way. Which is fine, but its still just your opinion. The game system is abstract of necessity, and you want it to be more specific to any given situation. That's a basic conflict in how the game does things, and how you want them to be.

You are supposed to use the Paradigms to control the general flow of battle, using your Party Leader to fill in the specifics. Because you the player, will always know better than the best programmed AI, what the most appropriate course of action is at the real crunch moments. An AI can be programmed with the illusion of intelligence, but it is not alive. Human players will always scream at computers for not doing what it should 'obviously' do under the situation.

But that's what you are for. The situation you describe in point 2 (where you were nearly dead, and you weren't healed for enough damage), is a very specific one that will hardly ever come up. Because it needs a very specific set of circumstances, due to the facr that the AI is programmed to always priortise your leader for healing.

In the case you describe, the AI's non living state has been exposed. It followed its programming, which works in 99% of situations, but wasn't appropriate in that specific circumstance. You and Hope were obviously at the threshold, where the AI deemed you (the player) were at risk, but could be saved with a Cura, which would also help Hope who was in need of healing too.

But you had options, because the game knows this situation might arise. You could just have used a Potion, for heaven's sake! That would have supplemented your healing, and got you out of the danger zone long enough to be healed. Its what the potions and other healing items are for - emergencies. When you see the battle going that badly, that your leader is reduced to critical, you should immediatly have switched to either Salvation (3 Medics), or Combat Clinic (1 Sen, 2 Meds) etc.

Against the stronger foes, a Paradigm with 2 Medics is mandatory. Otherwise, even Hope or Vanille will struggle to heal you faster than the enemy can hit you.The trick is keep your health high enough, switch to paradigms that buff you so you don't get smashed so quickly, then start to beat on the opponent. Control the battle like a General for overall strategy, and a Sergeant by making your status as the only living person with an actual mind, count in the best way possible.

And that means going beyond the Auto-Battle button. That is there so you can concentrate on managing the flow of battle without too much fuss in regular fights. In tougher fights, the battle goes much smoother with a human player picking the right buffs and debuffs to use, using potions, attacking at just the right number of ATP gagues, timing strikes so you hit alongside other party members to fill the gague quicker, or after others so you can get Blindsides etc etc.


If you didn't like the battle system, then that's unfortunate, but these things happen. Other people like me, and mostly all the critics (and God help me for relying on their support), did. Its horses for courses, but don't expect that a system that has been received very well by the fanbase in Japan and the critics from East and West, to get changed, just because you don't like it.

Mercenary Raven
07-20-2011, 10:08 PM
All of your reasons to go against the battle system are fucking retarded. The "Retry" feature exists if you're not satisfied with your current deck of paradigms and whatnot, you know; that's pretty much the counterargument to every single one of your points. At any rate, I haven't seen any problems with any of the things you mentioned, or at least why they're a problem specifically for the reasons you've mentioned; the game is filled with anti-frustration features.

Olde
07-24-2011, 05:03 AM
All of your reasons to go against the battle system are fucking retarded.

I redirect you to many of the previous posts in this thread. I hope you'll see that I'm not alone in my opinions (underscore 'opinions').
I like the battle system.

Although I'd prefer to be able to control all the characters


The only gripe I have is the fact that you can't control the characters while fighting.


What I would have done differently is to include Gambit settings to make it possible to have an ounce of input on the supporting characters' behavior.
I liked that the battle system made things fast paced, but I didn't like that it stripped me of a lot of control over my party.


I just wish you could have controlled all the party members. I wish they had let you move around though, since the game has AoE attacks.


I don't like scrub AIs controlling my characters.


I really hated not being able to play as others but I really enjoyed hope healing me whenever i shifted paradigm :)


I found the AI to be lacking in certain areas (why is Hope casting Enfire before Haste? why do two commandos attack different enemies rather than gang up on the staggered enemy?). For the most part, the AI was smart and populated the "Auto Attack" with proper commands, but I wish I could have tweaked the AI a bit like XII's Gambits.


If you were given more freedom,to move your character for example,it would've been better.


The "Retry" feature exists if you're not satisfied with your current deck of paradigms and whatnot, you know; that's pretty much the counterargument to every single one of your points.

That's the same thing as arguing for the soft-reset in the PSX/PS2 games. The retry feature is the same thing as soft-resetting, which abruptly ends the battle and allows you to adjust your battle arrangements because of limitations on the battle screen. "If you get creamed by a boss, just soft-reset and adjust your gambits/junctions/materia/whatever until you win." Where we differ is that I don't think this should be justified in FFXIII because most of the limitations in the battle are not reasonable (such as the unpredictable AI, paradigm setup, weapon/accessory choice, etc.). Maybe my idea of fun isn't the same as yours, but I don't see restarting the battle over and over as being a good concept. Rather, it's a mark of poor game design. Yeah, I could conceive of a game where the conditions for winning are nigh-impossible to foresee and there would be considerable in-battle restrictions, therefore necessitating the need for frequent retries, but does that make it a great battle system? No. I would prefer a battle system where you are given enough freedom to be able to pretty much beat any new enemy the game throws at you the first time around.


Well, I don't agree with you, on practically any of that. Most of your complaints use 'I don't like the way it does things like this', as a pretext to say it *shouldn't* do them that way. Which is fine, but its still just your opinion. The game system is abstract of necessity, and you want it to be more specific to any given situation. That's a basic conflict in how the game does things, and how you want them to be.

You are supposed to use the Paradigms to control the general flow of battle, using your Party Leader to fill in the specifics. Because you the player, will always know better than the best programmed AI, what the most appropriate course of action is at the real crunch moments. An AI can be programmed with the illusion of intelligence, but it is not alive. Human players will always scream at computers for not doing what it should 'obviously' do under the situation.

But that's what you are for. The situation you describe in point 2 (where you were nearly dead, and you weren't healed for enough damage), is a very specific one that will hardly ever come up. Because it needs a very specific set of circumstances, due to the facr that the AI is programmed to always priortise your leader for healing.

In the case you describe, the AI's non living state has been exposed. It followed its programming, which works in 99% of situations, but wasn't appropriate in that specific circumstance. You and Hope were obviously at the threshold, where the AI deemed you (the player) were at risk, but could be saved with a Cura, which would also help Hope who was in need of healing too.

But you had options, because the game knows this situation might arise. You could just have used a Potion, for heaven's sake! That would have supplemented your healing, and got you out of the danger zone long enough to be healed. Its what the potions and other healing items are for - emergencies. When you see the battle going that badly, that your leader is reduced to critical, you should immediatly have switched to either Salvation (3 Medics), or Combat Clinic (1 Sen, 2 Meds) etc.

Against the stronger foes, a Paradigm with 2 Medics is mandatory. Otherwise, even Hope or Vanille will struggle to heal you faster than the enemy can hit you.The trick is keep your health high enough, switch to paradigms that buff you so you don't get smashed so quickly, then start to beat on the opponent. Control the battle like a General for overall strategy, and a Sergeant by making your status as the only living person with an actual mind, count in the best way possible.

And that means going beyond the Auto-Battle button. That is there so you can concentrate on managing the flow of battle without too much fuss in regular fights. In tougher fights, the battle goes much smoother with a human player picking the right buffs and debuffs to use, using potions, attacking at just the right number of ATP gagues, timing strikes so you hit alongside other party members to fill the gague quicker, or after others so you can get Blindsides etc etc.

If you didn't like the battle system, then that's unfortunate, but these things happen. Other people like me, and mostly all the critics (and God help me for relying on their support), did. Its horses for courses, but don't expect that a system that has been received very well by the fanbase in Japan and the critics from East and West, to get changed, just because you don't like it.

I really don't want to turn this into a polemical argument, mostly because I know how unrelenting you are, judging from your previous posts. However, let me address your first point, that saying "I don't like it is a pretext for saying that it shouldn't be a certain way." I ask you, what are the prerequisites for saying that the battle system shouldn't be a certain way? If I think it should be changed, there's obviously something I don't like about it. Would it make sense to say that I think it should be changed, even though I love it to death? Of course not. There are things in FFXIII's gameplay that I see as flaws, thus, I inherently don't like them (especially when they hinder my ability to progress through the game at a natural speed) and I think they should be changed. If you really want to get nasty, I could interpret the underlying message of your statement as being, "Just because you're not good at it doesn't mean the system is at fault, it's you." Such a statement is fair enough, but there's something to be said for not being able to master a battle system after mastering and having no problems with the previous six single-player installments in the FF franchise.

As for your second point, that the AI can't replace a human mind and that one needs to consider this in light of the fact that you have specific choices in your non-playable character's roles, your paradigm setups, etc., I completely agree with you. And maybe if I was better at anticipating the AI behavior, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with certain aspects of the gameplay. But my point is that I see the limitation to one party member and the paradigm choices as being an unnecessary, superficial restriction. Sure, if I had the patience, I could probably get over this pitfall and master this and every other limitation the game throws at me. And this goes back to Merc's point that I could just retry and retry as many times as I want. But the fact that they made this a limiting part of the gameplay does not appeal to me and, judging from many other posts in this thread alone, a lot of other people as well.

Lastly, I'll conclude by simply saying that although I didn't like the battle system, I respect the fact that you enjoyed it and played it enough to master it to the point of being a General/Sergeant of the FFXIII battlefield. So I can see where you can have a problem with a lot of my points, considering you no longer have any trouble dealing with what I see as restrictive hurdles. What I'm saying is that in light of the previous games, which really opened up the playing field to different strategies, FFXIII feels too restricted. That particular atmosphere of the battles is a feature of the game and if that's your cup of tea, no amount of arguing can change that. I personally didn't like it, and listed points that I felt would improve the gameplay if they were changed because I felt that the game could have been a lot better and that a new game using the paradigm system could take these into account. My points also show what kind of aspects of the gameplay that I value and that I think mark modes of progression, not regression. If I'm not very good at a game like this and if everyone else is great at it, then so be it, but that shouldn't disallow me from voicing what I think are superficial, unjustified, and easily improved constraints.

Vrykolas
07-24-2011, 09:39 AM
Hello there, Olde.

Now, when have I ever criticised people's skill at playing games? That's the kind of thing that childish fools do, and whilst I might be a fool, I'm not childish, damn it! :D

My point was (and you do it again in this post), you can declare something all you like, but it doesn't make it true. It will still only be your opinion, and saying that lots of people on this very FF13 unfriendly forum, agree with you, doesn't lend it any more authenticity. It doesn't make any of what you said necessarily wrong, but it doesn't make it right, either.

Consensus derived from an audience that are ill disposed towards a game is only worth something if those parties have viewed it objectively, and reached the decision based on the merits/demerits of the game. And that is something which I simply don't believe you will and can get for JRPGs on western gaming forums, right now. The genre is viewed with contempt by many, and even amongst fans, you have the 'everything after FF - insert favourite FF here - are rubbish' brigades.


Your points about the Paradigm system being an unnecessary restriction are very naive, in my opinion. The trend in RPGs of all kinds is towards single character control (Mass Effect, Fallout, Oblivion, Dungeon Siege et al, all only allow you to control 1 character). The times are changing, and blaming this game for keeping up with that trend, is very unfair.

And I still think you're vastly overstating the problem with the AI. Its always an issue in all games, how dumb the AI can be, and far from terrible, I think the allied AI actually works extremely well in this game. Your one example was a ridiculously specific 'Absolute Worst Case Scenario' and even then, as I pointed out, a simple quaffing of a Potion would have pulled your irons out of the fire.

Not that I'm claiming its perfect (although again, show me the game with perfect AI). The most frustrating thing for me, was not being able to tell my Synergists to concenrate on attacking buffs, rather than defensive buffs. Unless you have 2 of them, it can ages for Hope to get around to casting Bravery and Faith, when that's all I really wanted anyway.


And lastly, I agree that the previous games had many aspects (not just in terms of game systems), that were superior to FF13. I have never claimed that this is the best or even one of the very best Final Fantasies. But it is a good game IMO, and certainly a hell of a lot deeper and better than people on western gaming forums are giving it credit for.

And to reiterate, the times are changing. FF is unfortunate in that because it is such an old franchise, it is doomed to alienate its older fans. Because in this day and age, you must adapt to current trends or die. But when you do that, people say its just not the same anymore, like the good old days. There were many decisions I would not personally have endorsed if I was in the Square development office when the game was being made, but you can't just keep making games like they used to be made, and expect people to buy them in the quantities you need to offset the enormous costs of game production these days.

Because FF's production values are one thing that haven't suffered. The games still look and play magnificently. No bugs, glitches, freezes etc. But that costs uber money on today's consoles, so they need the games to sell. Hence the concessions to modern trends.

We all wish it wasn't like that, because the old RPGs and FF's *were* better (now who's making declaritive statements), but that's where we are.


Anyway, I'm sorry if I sounded confrontational. Your last post was very interesting, and a better defense of such views than many people bother to offer.

ANGRYWOLF
07-24-2011, 05:37 PM
as being issues/problems with the battle system.

We have to differentiate opinions from game design mistakes/flaws.

I guess the problems cited are opinions as opposed to being flaws.The system isn't the way I would have designed it or how I would have preferred it to operate.
I has nothing to do with being opposed to change although I do consider myself an old school kind of rpg guy.
If others like the system that's fine with me.But it's not the most optimal way for the game to operate in my opinion and not what I would prefer.
I will still buy XIII-2 even if it operates the same way.It looks very similar on the videos but who can say.
So while the system isn't flawed per se I feel it could have been better/more in line with what I prefer.

Mercenary Raven
07-24-2011, 09:10 PM
I redirect you to many of the previous posts in this thread. I hope you'll see that I'm not alone in my opinions (underscore 'opinions')The only reason you quote are "i hate how we can't control the characters" -- legitimate although FF13 would be ridiculously difficult if we controlled all characters.


2. The characters of whom you're not in control are fucking retarded. The first point MIGHT be forgivable were it not for this fact. Now yes, it's true that your allies will exploit elemental weaknesses when you've used Libra on an enemy. But when you've got a medic, synergist, sabateur, or sentinel, they do shite moves. For instance, let's say I want to keep Light as my Commando and Vanille as my Medic. Well, Light gets decimated, down to 100HP, so I expect Vanille to use three or four Cures on Light. But no, Vanille uses Cura because Hope happens to be right next to her, and he's down to only half his health. Well, Cura heals Light for 153 HP, but then she gets hit again for 400 points and dies. What the fucking hell?This is case-by-case too, because with AI you can expect anywhere from ridiculous amounts of genius to ridiculous amounts of fucktardisms. They "test the waters" when you don't know weaknesses and they hit with their weaknesses once found.


3. If your party leader dies, it's game over. Wait, what the fuck? Your party leader doesn't do anything except call out the paradigm formations. He/she doesn't tell the other combatants what moves to use. In fact, if you battle without any paradigm shifts at all, it's impossible to tell who's the party leader. In every other game, the party can survive without the party leader, but this game makes no fucking sense. Let's take an example. Your party leader is Lightning, and your other party members are Vanille (as Medic) and Snow (as Sentinel). So your Lightning character is a Commando and is up against a ton of enemies who all target her and KO her before Vanille can Cure her. So because Light's the party leader it's game over. But hold on, wouldn't Vanille just use Raise? So, like, they just throw up their hands in defeat whenever the party leader dies, instead of bringing someone else from the, I don't know, other three playable characters you have with you (see point 4)??? I just don't get it. This was a terrible idea.I agree but at the same time I think it was more of a thing of early on, where the controlled character was the "main" character and their getting KO'd/killed would logically result in a game over. I just don't think it should've carried on once your party was fully customizable.


4. You can't switch allies in battle. Seriously, why not? I mean, once you have all six members available, you're traveling together. There's no reason you can't switch a member out if you realize that you need a synergist when you haven't prepared for one. This is hindered even worse by the fact that some of your allies have different abilities (see point 9). So if you're up against a new enemy and the enemy is only weak against Fire magic and none of your party members have Firaga, even if they've completed every job class, you have to start all over. This was obviously a reaction against the criticism of XII that every character could have every ability. But that's no reason to make the player have to try over and over different combinations. I can't remember a single RPG that would actually let you try the battle over again. That's just laziness on the part of Square-Enix. Let me fucking battle the enemy and give me the fucking tools I need to figure out their weaknesses and let me figure out the best way to beat them, without starting the fuck over!!Only FFX and FFXII really had this. And FFX didn't even let you switch out fainted party members.


4. You can't physically move any of your characters toward or away from the enemy(ies). Seriously, sometimes your allies (even or party leader) will just walk into enemy attacks. If there are ranged attacks, at least give me the ability to move away from them. Jebus. Intolerable.How would you expect to do this?


5. There are only 6 possible setups available and you can't change them mid-battle. That's right, rather than most of the other Final Fantasies where you could mix and match any job classes you wanted into any party to fit the current situation, no, you have to figure it out BEFORE you enter battle. How does that make ANY sense? How does Lightning lose the ability to turn into a Ravager when your other two characters change classes? What the shit is that piece of fuck?

6. It's hard to actually see how much damage you're doing. Maybe I'm the only one, but I will proudly admit to an inability to see actually how much damage I'm doing. This is because of three reasons, the first being that the number that shows the damage is in a dull gray; the second being that the damage indicator SCROLLS UP to the actual number (so you're actually seeing a lot of numbers for each hit); and the third being that each character is hitting so hard and so fast that the battle screen becomes a mess of numbers, so much so that I can't tell if I'm doing a lot of damage or not. The cause for this last reason is that every attacking character has multiple ATB guages that they use for each attack. So if you have a Commando and two Ravagers who all have 4 guages and all attack at the same time (which, inevitably, they will), you're seeing 12 damage indicators at different locations on the same enemy at the same time. And I don't care if you're Stephen fucking Hawking, the brain can't process all those numbers simultaneously, let alone add all of them up. There are similar instances of this in X-2 and XII, but at least there, everyone had only one ATB guage, so it was manageable. Here, it's total chaos.This is just bitching about "I don't like the battle system" -- I like the Paradigm system because it feels like a puzzle to me. Saying it's "horseshit" is different from saying it's an opinion.


7. The game doesn't tell you the rules for determining the recovery speed of the stagger guage. Sometimes the stagger guage takes a long time to go back down to zero, and other times, it just flies down. For me, it seems to go down faster when a Ravager attacks, and slower when a Commando attacks. Why is that? Is it harder to recover from a sword up your ass than a fireball in your dick?They expected you to use your basic sense of observation. To be perfectly honest, the entire gameplay is trial-and-error which I absolutely love, so this is apart of it.


8. The rating system is pure shit. The game seems to care only about the speed at which you beat each battle, nothing else. It seems that the only thing this game values is how fast you can beat the enemies. It doesn't reward experimentation, creativity, or anything other than how fast you can get out of the battle screen. And there's a rating for every single fucking battle. And when you finally get to a battle where you get 0 stars because you didn't anticipate three assholes spamming Bazooka on one character that you had to revive, the sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach that "you should have done better," only to be rewarded with no good items, is not only discouraging but completely unnecessary. And from my playing, I've come to realize that the amount of stars doesn't actually seem to correlate to the spoils from battle. I've had numerous battles with five stars where I get nothing, and battles with one or zero stars where I get rare items. So what's the point of the rating system anyway? I'll tell you the point: to make you feel like you want to play, to give you a reason to get through the battles. While in the end, there really is no reason at all. But if they're going to reward the speed at which you get through it, I'm inclined to agree: I hate the battle system so much, I WANT to get out of that battle screen as fast as possible. Fucking jerks.Then don't try to appease the rating system? That's not even apart of the actual gameplay.


9. Not all characters can learn the same moves. Even once everybody finishes their Crystarium, not all characters know every single ability for each job class. What the fuck?! So inevitably, with your limitation of 6 Paradigms (see point 5) and the inability to switch party members (see point 3), you're going to have to sacrifice some abilities for others. And you will never know which ones you'll need and which you should sacrifice prior to a new battle. As I said before in point 4, this was a reaction toward the hostility agasint FFXII's License Board, where every character basically became carbon copies of each other, once they knew the same abilities. But can you think of a Final Fantasy game where your FINAL characters end up with different abilities, where some of them know Haste and others don't? I sure can't. It's bullshit. Just a technicality to make things artificially difficult without adding any real challenge. And that's a horse's asshole in any game.Err not "artificially difficult" it's just an incentive to use every character in battle despite the fact that they gain the same CP.


10. There's no WAIT feature. I can't remember a Final Fantasy where you can't pause before you take a turn to figure out your move, even if your enemies ATB guage is recharged once you're through with it. And I'm not one to frequently use the Wait feature in other installments, but here I might actually have to because I can't read the paradigm setups, analyze the situation, and determine the most effective battle configuration for taking down an enemy while I'm still getting pummeled. And there are new moves in this game that I have to read the description for before I determine whether I should use it or not. I don't want to have to leave the game speed on Slow because it's too slow for ordinary battles.Hit the "Start" button.


11. You can't change Weapons or Accessories mid-battle. This was even a feature in X and XII. What if my weapon is healing the enemy? What if I realize I need an accessory that can give me more health, or that can boost my magic? I can't even do that? Holy Hell, Batman! FFXII's system allowed for this and so did FFX's turn based system. In fact, you could never change accessories mid-battle in any game save X and XII. There's almost no reason to really change weapons in FFXIII mid battle, especially considering they don't have elements. Soft reset also helps.

Olde
07-25-2011, 04:57 PM
To all above concerned: What I typed in boldface in my list above (with the exception of point 8) are facts, empirical and observable aspects of the battle system. The ramblings after them are opinions. I will concede that there are lots of people out there who don't mind the facets of the gameplay that I've boldfaced, and I will also admit that there are many people who enjoy the game more because they view them as fun, interesting, and innovative challenges.


My point was (and you do it again in this post), you can declare something all you like, but it doesn't make it true. It will still only be your opinion, and saying that lots of people on this very FF13 unfriendly forum, agree with you, doesn't lend it any more authenticity. It doesn't make any of what you said necessarily wrong, but it doesn't make it right, either. Consensus derived from an audience that are ill disposed towards a game is only worth something if those parties have viewed it objectively, and reached the decision based on the merits/demerits of the game. And that is something which I simply don't believe you will and can get for JRPGs on western gaming forums, right now. The genre is viewed with contempt by many, and even amongst fans, you have the 'everything after FF - insert favourite FF here - are rubbish' brigades.

Fair enough. I'm not admitting rightness or wrongness. Judging from this response, would it be fair to say that my initial post was interpreted as stating facts? If so, then let me clarify: I WAS STATING AN OPINION. I feel that one can state an opinion that the gameplay is worthless and utter shit. So when I say it is, the assumed qualifier is "but that's my opinion."


Your points about the Paradigm system being an unnecessary restriction are very naive, in my opinion. The trend in RPGs of all kinds is towards single character control (Mass Effect, Fallout, Oblivion, Dungeon Siege et al, all only allow you to control 1 character). The times are changing, and blaming this game for keeping up with that trend, is very unfair.

That's a very accurate point and I never thought of it that way. But after all, S-E doesn't have to be a trend-follower.


And I still think you're vastly overstating the problem with the AI. Its always an issue in all games, how dumb the AI can be, and far from terrible, I think the allied AI actually works extremely well in this game. Your one example was a ridiculously specific 'Absolute Worst Case Scenario' and even then, as I pointed out, a simple quaffing of a Potion would have pulled your irons out of the fire. Not that I'm claiming its perfect (although again, show me the game with perfect AI). The most frustrating thing for me, was not being able to tell my Synergists to concenrate on attacking buffs, rather than defensive buffs. Unless you have 2 of them, it can ages for Hope to get around to casting Bravery and Faith, when that's all I really wanted anyway.

That's my point. I mean, in all realistic possibility, if the game gave you control of three characters in much the same way as XII, I would let them use auto-battle for the most part, but when I would want Bravery and Faith, I would take control of the Synergist myself and save all the trouble. I don't like leaving the battlefield up to AI, and if that's where we two differ, then I can't persuade you one way or the other. It's my opinion.

And by the way, the "ridiculously specific Worst Case Scenario" happened to me A LOT. And situations like what you stated, where a synergist wouldn't buff a specific character with a specific effect happened to me all the time. Again, my point is that it would have saved me the headache had they given the player control of the characters. Maybe you just didn't mind as much as me, and I don't think I'm the easily frustrated type.


And lastly, I agree that the previous games had many aspects (not just in terms of game systems), that were superior to FF13. I have never claimed that this is the best or even one of the very best Final Fantasies. But it is a good game IMO, and certainly a hell of a lot deeper and better than people on western gaming forums are giving it credit for. And to reiterate, the times are changing. FF is unfortunate in that because it is such an old franchise, it is doomed to alienate its older fans. Because in this day and age, you must adapt to current trends or die. But when you do that, people say its just not the same anymore, like the good old days. There were many decisions I would not personally have endorsed if I was in the Square development office when the game was being made, but you can't just keep making games like they used to be made, and expect people to buy them in the quantities you need to offset the enormous costs of game production these days.

I'm cool with you saying that it's a deeper and better game than people are giving it credit for. And I'm sorry if you feel alienated as someone who enjoyed the game and feel that it's been unjustly attacked for aspects that you liked. My point is that S-E could have done more to make the gameplay more engaging, accessible, less frustrating, and more akin to what I personally have seen as progress in the series (opinion, of course :)), and thus what might have appealed to fans of the game franchise. FFXIII is not the first of the series, and its status as a new installment in the series inevitably invites comparison to the previous games (I've said this before). So whether it's the battle system or linearity or what-have-you, there are fans of the series who are used to a certain way the gameplay has worked in previous installments. And in my opinion, it could have done more to be fun considering the progress of the battle systems of the previous games in the series.


Because FF's production values are one thing that haven't suffered. The games still look and play magnificently. No bugs, glitches, freezes etc. But that costs uber money on today's consoles, so they need the games to sell. Hence the concessions to modern trends.

Hate to break it to you, but the game did have major freezing issues on the PS3 when it first came out. A quick Google search will provide info. Not that this matters at all in one's assessment of how the game stands in the here and now.


We all wish it wasn't like that, because the old RPGs and FF's *were* better (now who's making declaritive statements), but that's where we are.

Not necessarily. I thought that the battle systems were better because it gave the player more control. And this is what it all comes down to. I personally value control of my characters. That's why I didn't enjoy the paradigm system, because it limited my options for role combinations in a battle, and there wasn't any justification as to why there was that (in my opinion, gratuitous) restriction. My question that I initially posed (for example, if you don't have the paradigm Cerberus, then how can you justify Light's ability to turn into a Commando when there are two ravagers, but not when there are two other Commandos?) was never answered by the game, by S-E, or by supporters of the battle system. Do you know why? It's because it's an unnecessary restriction that I saw as being a way to artificially raise the difficulty of the gameplay. It's fine if you enjoyed the Paradigm system, I'm not bashing you. Rather, I say more power to you for being able to conquer what I thought was a huge hurdle. But as I said before, I value control of the situation, the characters, etc., and to be limited to six (Seriously, is there any reason for six as opposed to eight, or four? Is six just arbitrary?) character setups was, in my opinion, unnecessary. Maybe you didn't mind the diminished control that I saw as a feature of the game. But I couldn't get past it. That's why I said a lot of the things that I did, because I value certain things with my video games. And if we differ on these values, then all we can do is agree to disagree. And I'm cool with that.


The only reason you quote are "i hate how we can't control the characters" -- legitimate although FF13 would be ridiculously difficult if we controlled all characters.

Grammatically incorrect sentence aside, I would say that FF13 would not be ridiculously difficult if we controlled all the characters. What I mean by that is that I can see the gameplay being the same--you control a main character and the other two use the AI's auto-attack/heal/guard/whatever--but like in FFXII, when you pull up the party leaders battle menu, you can scroll through the other two characters' menus and program in what spells/abilities you want them to use and targets you want them to target (which was something I mistakenly missed from my list).


This is case-by-case too, because with AI you can expect anywhere from ridiculous amounts of genius to ridiculous amounts of fucktardisms. They "test the waters" when you don't know weaknesses and they hit with their weaknesses once found.

But you see, I'm not willing to accept the ridiculous amounts of fucktardisms of AI characters, I'd rather program their moves myself. Testing the waters in unacceptable to me, especially after we've had the (in my opinion) great battle flexibility and control of FFX, X-2, and XII. Yes, this is admittedly favoritism of a specific battle system, I don't deny that. But again, they're my favorite battle systems because of the combination of flexibility and control, two things that I greatly value in my games and that I saw lacking in this one.


I agree but at the same time I think it was more of a thing of early on, where the controlled character was the "main" character and their getting KO'd/killed would logically result in a game over. I just don't think it should've carried on once your party was fully customizable.

Makes sense, and I agree actually. At a certain point when the game opens up, the party leader's death=party death doesn't make sense, and the game doesn't try to justify this in any way.


Only FFX and FFXII really had this. And FFX didn't even let you switch out fainted party members.

Even so, FFX and FFXII were before FFXIII, and thus I think it should have been used. Players got used to this, as video games were less hindered by technological possibility. So switching characters has become an expectation. The lack of switching characters in and out should not be acceptable. End of story.


How would you expect to do this?

Like FFXII, silly.


This is just bitching about "I don't like the battle system" -- I like the Paradigm system because it feels like a puzzle to me. Saying it's "horseshit" is different from saying it's an opinion.

Fine, let me correct myself. In my opinion, the Paradigm system is horseshit because it is a needless and artificial difficulty (an arbitrary handicap that only serves to limit you because the developers couldn't make the game difficult in other ways).


They expected you to use your basic sense of observation. To be perfectly honest, the entire gameplay is trial-and-error which I absolutely love, so this is apart of it.

I find trial and error in video games to be gimmicky, unnecessary, and stressful. Granted, the Stagger gauge is not like IWBTG, but when they don't explain the qualifications for a certain achievement, it's just stress-inducing, not fun.


Then don't try to appease the rating system? That's not even apart of the actual gameplay.

Thankfully I don't, but it is a part of the gameplay because the game tells you that you get better spoils the faster you beat each battle, thus changing your battle strategy to shoot for the lowest time possible. And it's not like you can turn off the rating system, and I can't ignore the fact that I get a low score because the developers ensure that you know it's possible and feel that it should be easy to get 5 stars.


Err not "artificially difficult" it's just an incentive to use every character in battle despite the fact that they gain the same CP.

It is artificially difficult because you don't know whether or not you need, for example, a Synergist with En(Elemental), Haste, Protect/Shell, or Bravery/Faith. I concede that this requires strategic improvisation on the battlefield, but sometimes the fact that I didn't anticipate needing a certain buff that I'm not able to access feels like a burden I just don't want to deal with.


Hit the "Start" button.

You failed to take into account the fact that the Pause screen brought up by the "Start" button blurs the screen, so you can't read what's on the battle menu/Ability description/Paradigm setup. I know. I've tried.


FFXII's system allowed for this and so did FFX's turn based system. In fact, you could never change accessories mid-battle in any game save X and XII. There's almost no reason to really change weapons in FFXIII mid battle, especially considering they don't have elements. Soft reset also helps.

The fact that they only included the feature in two games before isn't grounds to say they didn't need to include it. It's called progress. You keep what works and scrap what doesn't. Here, S-E scrapped what worked. So there are no elemental weapons, I didn't know that. But still, the weapons give different stat bonuses (some give higher magic, others give higher strength), and which bonus you'll want depends on which role your character is in, which depends on the enemy. So I think it should have been included. The different effects of the accessories is reason enough, anyway. Lastly, you also didn't consider what I said about soft-resetting. I take it you don't have a problem with doing a battle over and over again. Well, I do. I had a problem with it in the earlier Final Fantasies and I have it with this one, too. My main beef with the retry system is that it compensates for not giving you, the player, enough liberties in battle. If your characters could switch to any job class regardless of paradigm, if you could control the characters without leaving their actions up to chance, and if you could move them to avoid area attacks, switch weapons/accessories, etc., then there wouldn't be any need for the retry feature or soft-reset because you could figure it out in the battle on the first try! If one were to argue for realism in the game, this is where it breaks down. You're not given a second chance in actual combat. So it doesn't really make sense to me. And besides, I hate having to redo a battle over and over again because I had to keep trying out different armlets for my ravager, or whatever.

I get the sense, MercRaven, that you and I are completely different types of gamers. If so, then I respect your opinions about certain aspects of FFXIII's battle features, but I'm not going to change mine, even though you're probably much better at the game than me. For me, there was too much that I couldn't get used to, which I've already listed at great length. If you don't find those facts difficult to get used to, then fine, let it go. But arguing fruitlessly isn't going to get you, or me, anywhere. If you think the gameplay is perfect, then fine, that's your opinion. I've already stated mine, that I find it to be pure, unadulterated shit. And the least you can do is acknowledge that I do actually have reasons for this opinion and I understand and have experience with these aspects of the game that one might find frustrating. Finally, even if you don't agree with my opinion, I've put up more than enough support for it that it warrants respect (although maybe I should have been more respectful in my opening post :P)

Vrykolas
07-25-2011, 06:26 PM
Hola.

I think the likely reason for six characters was because the story was very closely centered on the characters this time, rather than constantly ongoing plot this time. The main baddies don't even start showing up until about Chapter 7, and even then, they don't do that much, because the game's focus is so squarely on the party. When you have more characters, it means less screen time of consequence for each indidivual character.

There's also the issue of character redundancy. The more characters you have, the harder it is to keep them all balanced stat wise, to make them all equally useful. Even with six characters, this still comes up. The Tank - Damage Dealer - Support Caster/Ranger setup is so common to RPGs of all kinds, that people quickly assess who has the best raw stats to fill each role, and just take them.

And lastly, there's probably a financial element too. Now you have voice actors for everyone, the more main/recurring characters you have, the more actors you need and the more time it will take to script and shape such important characters.


I'm not sure what you mean about Lightning only being able to be a Commando when Ravagers are around. You can have 3 Commandos if you want (just create the Aggression Paradigm). I feel like I must have misunderstood you here, because this seems a fairly straightforward point. Unless I am missing something, I don't know what else to say, really.


And as to the 'died because your Healer didn't heal you properly', I can only say that in my experience (which is 3 playthroughs, the most recent of which was an 100+ hours do everything run), if you include 2 Medics, this just doesn't happen. Without seeing any footage of you playing, the problem seems to be that you're not setting the right Paradigms to cover yourself.

If you see that you're getting smashed, or get hit with a mighty blow to your leader that drops you from Green to Red etc, you should immediatly switch to Combat Clinic (Sentinel + 2 Medics), and you *will* be fine against any but the mightiest of mighty bosses (in practice, this only really applies to Orphan in the regular game).

But I agree that this is an area where the game can run into problems. Because 1 Medic alone isn't enough (certainly if Lightning is that Medic, as she is a more a Combat Nurse than full Medic). The main issue for me is one of my principal gripes about the whole system - the fact that characters have to turn to face people they want to heal. This can be an absolute nightmare sometimes, with your Healer wasting valuble seconds lumbering round like they have tank controls, when they should just be able to cast.

Now you might say that its not good that the system needs 2 Medics to deliver reliable healing, that you shouldn't have to do that etc. I agree to a certain point, but then that's like complaining that you need a Healer/White Mage in most RPGs (as you do, unless you want to waste a fortune on consummable items, and it drives me crazy in all those games too).

Being forced to include certain classes or combos of classes, because you can't really do without them is always irritating. I would prefer to just have the one Medic, but hard experience has taught me that it doesn't work well enough, and can lead to the situation you describe. Should have I copped to that earlier (as it basically proves your point that the AI can leave you hanging)?

Probably, but hand on heart, its so ingrained into me to take 2 Medics now, that I barely remember the times when I tried to make do without them. There's also the fact that Lightning is a Medic, and she is the default choice of party leader for most (and the game seems to assume you will use her). So you can always conduct some of the healing yourself (which you should do if things get that bad).

Another reason 1 Medic is dicey, is that characters like Hope and Vanille have other important duties they need to be performing (Buffing and debuffing, filling chain gagues etc), so you don't want to have to spend more than a few seconds healing your party, or it can really start to cost you. 2 Medics heal the party in seconds, 1 can take a while, and can sometimes only keep level with the amount of damage you are taking, which is no real use at all.

The other thing to bear in mind is that having Snow as your leader instead of Lightning is a very wise choice, as it makes this solution even more effective. One thing that people often overlook about Sentinel, is that even without doing anything at all, Sentinels get a massive boost to their defenses, so when an enemy winds up a big attack and/or you've just taken a life threatening series of hits, a quick change to Sentinel will make your guy/gal able to survive, even if gravely wounded.

The actual Sentinel abilities are just more powerful protections that offer counters, healing etc. For emergency protection though, all you need is to actually adopt the Sentinel paradigm - they really are that tough.

Which is why Snow as Team Leader is so great, because if you put him in a team with 2 Medics, you can do Combat Clinic with him as the Sentinel (whereas Lightning as Team Leader is usually one of the Medics). Snow already has the highest HP of the party, and Sentinel makes him near invulnerable, easily enough time for him to be healed, even if he's on his last legs and the enemy uses a big move.

I go back to my General analogy - the control you have in battle will be derived from careful planning beforehand. Choosing the right people for the right roles, the right Paradigms in slots that you can easily move between at crunch situations. The AI is very competant (at least in my experience), so long as you know what you want them to do, and give them the resources to do it properly (supply enough Medics, get Sentinel on your leader, make your leader into one of the key roles so you can remotely do it ete etc).


That's all I've got. If you don't like the system, then you don't like it, simple as that. I've never been a big system guru really, and I'm perfectly happy to coast along doing the minimum required to get by if the game lets me (because I play RPGs for the story and characters primarily). But if a game requires me to learn how to do something properly, I will do it if the system engages me enough.

And in FF13, this applied. The later chapters require you to understand the working of the systems properly, rather than just mash 'Auto Battle', and I liked the system and overall game enough that I was happy to put the time in to develop those skills. And when I did, I found it be very rewarding - so I obviously fight the game's corner on these points.

Anyway Olde, I accept several of your points (I should have copped to the problems a single Medic can leave you in earlier - an unfortunate ommission earlier), but I still disagree with most of them. But we've been over all that in previous posts. I think the system is a good one, and its certainly one of the JRPG systems that I've enjoyed the most recently.

Olde
07-25-2011, 09:36 PM
I edited my previous statement so as to make it easier to understand. I don't really see what you're saying about having six characters. Truth be told, I didn't mind that much that you had only six characters. Hell, you only had six in FFXII, save for the occasional guest.

The points you bring up about having two medics (planning paradigms), strategizing your characters, and relying on the careful planning before engaging in battle are generally informative. As you said, I really hated needing to resort to two medics, even the Combat Clinic, to heal really pissed me off. So I never got engaged with the battle system enough to develop a strategy as effectively as you. And you might say that's unfortunate, but I don't regret not sticking to a game that isn't my cup of tea, a game that repeatedly frustrates me because I refuse to accept what I see as its limitations. I appreciate the battle tips, but at this point, I'm not going to go turn on the game and readjust my paradigms, character setup, etc. because I just don't care. The plot hasn't captivated my interest, I dislike many other aspects of the game (non-battle related), and I'm not engaged enough with the battle system to give it another shot. Sorry.

But that's okay, because there are so many RPGs out that there's something for everyone. FFXIII is not for me for the above reasons and some others, too. There are RPGs that incorporate features that do engage me, RPGs that I like whose aspects I hope to see more of in future games.


That's all I've got. If you don't like the system, then you don't like it, simple as that. I've never been a big system guru really, and I'm perfectly happy to coast along doing the minimum required to get by if the game lets me (because I play RPGs for the story and characters primarily). But if a game requires me to learn how to do something properly, I will do it if the system engages me enough. And in FF13, this applied. The later chapters require you to understand the working of the systems properly, rather than just mash 'Auto Battle', and I liked the system and overall game enough that I was happy to put the time in to develop those skills. And when I did, I found it be very rewarding - so I obviously fight the game's corner on these points.

That's where we differ. The system didn't engage me enough. I coasted along, not strategizing like it wanted (I'm sure you picked up on this), and when I did try to strategize, I was met with frustration when it didn't meet what I had come to expect from previous games, so I gave it up. But I don't regret it. I felt there was so much lacking that it wasn't rewarding to me. I obviously didn't like the game/system as much as you did, which is fine. I'm glad you enjoyed the game and hope you're looking forward to the sequel(s).

topopoz
07-26-2011, 07:06 AM
Olde raised some damn good valid points for what I call in my book. A perfectly Unfair battle system. It reminded me the Megami Tensei series, were the only thing that exists in most of the titles in that series is the ilusion of strategy. All your options shrink to the one and only possible way to defeat the enemies. Which requires for the player to do some tedious Trial & Error period of time of game to discover the ONLY strategy that works with that enemy. Now to me that's not fun.
This also reminds me to the Castlevania Series, After SCIV they returned to a limited control of character and after SOTN they returned again to a limited character control compared to what the previous titles Installed for the series.

Now, I didn't play FFXIII yet. But all the points that raise Olde, made me remember those frustrating times playing SMT III and SMT I. Castlevania Dracula X/Rondo Of Blood, and the rest of the MetroidVania series excepting SOTN.

Dragoncurry
07-26-2011, 12:47 PM
I'm going to start this off by saying I hate the battle system. However, I felt that most of Olde's points don't really show why the battle system sucks. Some of his points are spot on though.

I'll start with what I disagreed with him about.


You're only in control of one character

Not really. You're basically controlling all three based on sets. Just by switching a person from ravager to commando, you are technically telling them "what to do." Just because you're not individually punching in Ice strike does not mean you are not controlling three people. You are almost in full command of what's going out (heals, damage, tank or stagger stabilizer). Generally controlling your characters in specific roles does not take away from the battle system. You already said this is not so bad if it wasn't for your second point correct?


The characters of whom you're not in control are fucking retarded. Well, Light gets decimated, down to 100HP, so I expect Vanille to use three or four Cures on Light. But no, Vanille uses Cura because Hope happens to be right next to her, and he's down to only half his health. Well, Cura heals Light for 153 HP, but then she gets hit again for 400 points and dies. What the fucking hell?

The AI isn't retarded, you are. You need to 1) switch paradigms earlier before Lightning gets too low, or 2) have 2 people go medic to compensate for your late call (one of which can be lightning herself). By switching Lightning to Medic you can stall your death long enough for Vanille to heal you. You expect to switch paradigms when Lightning is at 100 hp and expect to live because the AI reacts better than you do to battle conditions? I don't think so. If you think the AI should have healed you, then you should have switched earlier. To go back to your first point about controlling 3 characters, I bet you that you wouldn't be able to switch to Vanille and throw 3x Cures on Lightning if fast enough anyway. The window for reaction is really small in that case AI or Human. I always drop to double heal, cover heals on myself, and let Vanille catch up in advance. It just seems you're playing poorly, then yelling at the AI for not covering your late calls.


If your party leader dies, it's game over.

Other than really random times where your party leader gets RNG nuked for no reason, I can't see this as being anything but a minor annoyance. I played the game to past the fabled 20 hour mark, and it happened very rarely where Lightning would get rocketed 19 times without me being able to save her. So it's not a big deal as you're making it out to be.


You can't switch allies in battle.

You don't need to. The paradigms give you enough control that switching would add additional complexities that are needless. For example, an extra button that you might confuse with the paradigm button causing additional grievances, ETC. This isn't a big deal and wouldn't make the battle system better.


You can't physically move any of your characters toward or away from the enemy(ies).

Added level of complexity and a set of buttons that would be inevitably needless. There are times when characters move toward the enemies for no reason, but again, that is a minor grievance. Intolerable is a strong word for something that is not really an issue. I had times when my idiot characters randomly blocked the enemies that would have otherwise killed Lightning so it worked both ways. Overall, it didn't detract from the battle experience.


There are only 6 possible setups available and you can't change them mid-battle

You can make nearly every single possible combination with that 6. Adding the kind of logic that you are to it (lightning cant forget being a ravager) does not really make sense since then one could say, "why you have to switch paradigms at all, you should be a commando and ravager at the same time." That's how the paradigm system works, and it's not a bad idea since you do have the versatality to shift.


Not all characters can learn the same moves

That does not necessarily mean that your characters are unprepared for any battle as selective choicemaking is much better than having every option available to you. Why? Because it allows for a more personalized and more strategic decision on which points to spend when and where.


There's no WAIT feature

There are lulls in battle when you can figure things out. Or I believe you can pause by bringing up the paradigm menu, I do not remember quite. I never used Wait feature, but this is a viable concern if you are not used to faster battles.


You can't change Weapons or Accessories mid-battle

Never had this problem where my weapon healed the enemy, and doesn't really make sense to me, nor do I see how this can detract from the battle system itself or add anything meaningful to it.


I am currently at work, so all I posted here was what I disagreed with you about. I will post why I hate the system after I get home so don't take it the wrong way that I am bashing your reasons, the ones I did not list here are the ones I agreed with and there are a few more reasons why the system is not good. Till then :).

Mercenary Raven
07-28-2011, 12:34 AM
*snip*Apologies for hostilities, then.

I'd like to mention that I'm one of those people that likes a complete change of pace and goes with the flow regardless -- it should explain why I like each and every FF game for being fundamentally different from the others.

Harkus
07-29-2011, 12:58 PM
Yay, this thread is still alive :)

I haven't really been following up on Final Fantasy recently but I've heard that FFXIII-2 is coming out and they have listened to fans and have made it less linear. Is the battle system going to change?

PS. I feel like I'm spamming the boards..... I haven't been active for about a year, sue me :p

Dragoncurry
08-02-2011, 04:20 PM
Sorry I was late as shit responding here again. In response to Olde again:


It's hard to actually see how much damage you're doing.

Completely agree. When you have like 3 people attacking simultaneously, it's a giant clusterfuck.

It's more show than substance

You lose the impact of the impressive attacks because they feel weak and unsubstantial. The crits don't feel like crits, the ground slams don't feel like they hurt. The only move that was remotely satisfying was Quake and I don't even remember if it did damage. It is all a lot of flashy show.

The Paradigm switch system disrupts the flow of battle

Because it cuts to your party members who pose every time a paradigm switch is called for, it distracts from the flow of battle by causing a break in the field of vision. ALso because paradigm switches are integral to the fights, this is a pretty big problem.

Olde
08-05-2011, 05:00 PM
It's hard to actually see how much damage you're doing.

Completely agree. When you have like 3 people attacking simultaneously, it's a giant clusterfuck.

I know it's my initial complaint, but this is obviously part of the FFXIII strategy for winning. The battle system is basically aimed towards one thing: staggering the enemy, then doing massive amounts of damage (at least for the enemies that are hard). You actually don't really need to see have many points of damage you're doing, because you're given the enemy's health bar and you can constantly see how much damage is going down. Now, when the enemy is not staggered, it barely moves down at all, but when it is staggered, it goes down quite rapidly. And that's part and parcel with the battle system's strategy. They wouldn't rate you for time if it wasn't possible to beat the enemies quickly, so you're left with the only feasible strategy being that you have to hit the enemy into stagger mode and then pounding them into submission (if anyone has a more effective strategy, please correct me).

Now, I have a BIG problem with the battle system being centered on beating the enemies to stagger mode and then finishing them by going all out, BUT if you like the battle system, or even just live with it, you have to admit that it actually doesn't matter how many numerical points of damage you're doing, because: 1. you know that in stagger mode you do a shit-ton more damage than usual, and 2. you can always see the enemy's HP bar and see how hard you're hitting it down. So it doesn't really matter if the enemy has 100,000 HP or 450,000 HP, you're still using the same strategy; the only difference is how many times you're putting it in stagger mode. Again, I really disliked this battle strategy, but seeing the numerical data of the dealt damage is not really all that important. It's very different in this regard to previous FFs, and although I like change and innovation, in my opinion, it's too different from previous titles; it's more like a mash-fest than the previous games.


It's more show than substance

You lose the impact of the impressive attacks because they feel weak and unsubstantial. The crits don't feel like crits, the ground slams don't feel like they hurt. The only move that was remotely satisfying was Quake and I don't even remember if it did damage. It is all a lot of flashy show.

I disagree, mostly because this also goes into your previous complaint about not being able to see the damage--and come to think about it, failing to see the damage dealt and the effectiveness of critical hits are pretty much a very similar complaint. And I would counter by saying that, if you approve of the system, then it really doesn't matter if you critical hit them or not, because all that matters is pounding them when they're staggered. Think about the previous FFs. Did crits really feel like crits? Or were they just slight augmentations in sound and a 125%/150% damage multiplier? I don't really know how you're expecting them to appear. Maybe I'm not understanding you. It sounds to me like you want the critical hits to look and sound substantial. But in that case, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to want them to critical hits to be more flashy, or more aesthetically in line with what you consider "substantial." I see two ways to resolve this: 1. make the damage dealt by impressive attacks/critical hits higher; or, 2. make the visual/sound effects of impressive attacks/critical hits even more flashy. I'd love to hear your opinion on this.


The Paradigm switch system disrupts the flow of battle

Because it cuts to your party members who pose every time a paradigm switch is called for, it distracts from the flow of battle by causing a break in the field of vision. ALso because paradigm switches are integral to the fights, this is a pretty big problem.

Finally, I agree with you, but only to an extent. I would complain that the first paradigm shift takes too much time, and because it allows the enemy's ATB gauge to continue, I think the player is unfairly punished. Also, the visual effects of the paradigm shifts are boring, redundant, and (in this player's opinion) unnecessary. The succeeding paradigm shifts in battle aren't as long at all, although I would add that maybe even they take a bit too long for my personal comfort. Why do they have to raise their hands in the air to change job classes? Anyway, I don't think it's as big a problem as you think it is (besides the first paradigm shift in battle, that is). I'm recalling the FFX-2 job class change. Boy, did those take a long time if you had to sit through job class change animations; if I didn't set them on the "short" setting, then I would seriously consider not changing their jobs unless absolutely necessary. Here, it's not nearly as long, and although the battles are more fast-paced in FFXIII than in FFX-2, I still don't think that the paradigm shifts really "disrupt the flow of battle."

Dragoncurry
08-05-2011, 07:10 PM
And I would counter by saying that, if you approve of the system, then it really doesn't matter if you critical hit them or not, because all that matters is pounding them when they're staggered.


I'm going to start this off by saying I hate the battle system.

If you don't need numerical system then why the fuck do they even have it. Get rid of the numbers if they are just going add useless clutter to the game.


Did crits really feel like crits?

Yeah, they did! There was this huge satisfying slash sound that the game made sure you knew you hit them hard as fuck.

But in that case, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to want them to critical hits to be more flashy, or more aesthetically in line with what you consider "substantial." I see two ways to resolve this: 1. make the damage dealt by impressive attacks/critical hits higher; or, 2. make the visual/sound effects of impressive attacks/critical hits even more flashy. I'd love to hear your opinion on this.

Yeah to give your moves more a more solid feeling. Other than Sahz, I thought everyone hit like paper.

Nostalgia gamer
10-03-2011, 08:51 AM
I personally don't like the gameplay at all in FFXIII,nor the story.
I haven't played FFXII,so i can't say anything.

1:You finish a fight and get full heal which means that its pretty much takes out any challenge of preparation.I mean:WTF!!? that is simply overpowered.Back in the old days,you had to go to towns and look for potions and ethers and elixirs and remedies and softs and eyedrops.Now you just finish a fight and then full cure stats cured and full mana cure.I liked it in the old days,when you actually had to think about the equipment you wore:HEY!! this enemy casts zombie and also casts spells like doom.I'm going to need protection vs doom(DUH)

2:No more towns:I really miss having towns.I mean:I wish i could choose where i wanted to go like in the older games where you could at least explore dungeons and towns and even towers.It feels like as we go ahead,graphics get prettier,but everything else suffers.

3:The paradigm system:I don't like how they cap you untill you beat the game.I personally wish they could at least allow you to max everything out if you wanted to.

Vrykolas
10-03-2011, 05:50 PM
The regen of health is just bringing the series into the 21st century. Games of all kinds have been abolishing the need to acutely monitor health/mana etc. Health just regens after a while these days (Mass Effect 2 is a prime example). Its just the realities of modern gaming and short attention spans - make something too much of a chore and people don't like it.

It also make sense, seeing as how there are no MP in this game. Since it costs no mana to cast spells, can we not take it as read that the party will heal themselves after the battle? There's no need for us to actually do it under these circumstances. The fact is, health bars and mana bars are becoming a thing of the past (Fable 3 got rid of them too, as I recall). Games that do use them are often accused of being old fashioned and behind the times.

And the cap in the paradigm system is no issue - once the game really gets serious about the gameplay in Chapter 10-11, the Crystarium expands so massively, and unlocks the 3 disciplines that each character didn't previously have access to. It takes an *absurd* amount of time to max even that out before the end of the game, let alone the final expansion you get after killing Orphan.

To get the CPs you need for that final stage, you need the post game enemies. Many games have extensive post game extra content - this is simply part of that. Your characters are adquately powerful to finish the game and deal with all the regular enemies and bosses. Unlocking the final crystarium stage before the post game would be pointless. You can't earn enough CPs to make any sort of progression, and you don't need the extra stats for that stage of the game anyway.

Nostalgia gamer
10-03-2011, 06:04 PM
I personally find this kind of thing to be detrimental to the game vrykolas.
Perhaps you like an instant hp recovery and stat recovery,but i miss the old games.You used to have to work hard to beat the game,and not just rush through it as fast as possible.

Using potions and thinking ahead,is considered strategy.Its not just about in battle,but preparations for outside of battles that should also count.Did i bring enough pheonix downs and potions? do i have resistance to the stats this boss is using? no? Damm double damm triple damm.

Remember relics from FF6 and ff7? Yeah ok,ff7 was easy,and so was ff6,but the relics also are a form of strategy.
In ff9 i died to the final boss for not having enough ribbons equipped.I think this is a pretty good thing,because it means that you aren-t prepared for that fight.

The level cap thing,is just a cheesy way of adding fake difficulty.Even then,it fails miserably,because i didn-t have any trouble at all with it.

Vrykolas:I don-t think the old system is outdated either.Just because its old doesn-t mean it is outdated.It worked and people liked it,so it must have some positive aspect.After all;Look at how much popularity the materia system has from ff7.There are even people who like the sphere system from FFX,me included.

Vrykolas
10-03-2011, 06:36 PM
I didn't say that I approved of it, but I do understand why they are doing it. My point is that it is grossly unfair to blame this game for doing something that has been creeping into gaming for almost a decade now. Square can't simply carry on like it business as usual, using all the old systems, because modern gamers won't stand for it.

Again, I'm not too happy about it either. Just as I wasn't thrilled when Resident Evil lost its unique feel and was turned into an action game with the word 'Horror' scribbled in crayon across the box, for example. But such are the times - if you want to appeal to the modern mainstream of gaming, your game has to play fast and be easily accessible.

Its the same reason why games like Space Combat sims like Wing Commander and TIE Fighter have died a death - because modern gamers can't be bothered playing games with lots of different contols, and that are too hard etc. So the few that do remain are appallingly dumbed down beyond recognition.

I have my fingers crossed that the curiosity that people are feeling towards Dark Souls may reverse some of this, but I'm not holding my breath.

And the level cap is not adding fake difficulty at all - that isn't the point of it. The game spreads out the different aspects of the system, introducing them all slowly over the first 9 chapters. The story requires that you only reach yout full potential when the party come together as a real unit, with all their issues resolved in Chapter 9.

Its an artistic decision. As soon as the characters agree to fight with each other, and set a clear goal for themselves, the gameplay unlocks the final options like party select, leader select, unlocks the extra disciplines etc. It may be a very self indulgent way to make a game, deliberately keeping player's progress and gameplay options back to coincide with story beats, but I like their ambition on this.

Its more thought than most games get these days.

Nostalgia gamer
10-04-2011, 03:49 AM
Thing is vrykolas:I find it unfair that i can't over grind if i don't want to.
I happen to love grinding for some odd reason,and getting overpowered and beating enemies into oblivion.
I like using multiple techniques to overcome my enemy.I don't care if its old fashioned,but its not like it didn't work.What about the atb system? Are you saying that everything that is old should be simply abandoned because its old fashioned?

Resident evil is a different story all together.They are trying to appeal to the fps people who just want an online player mode with no creativity,and in so they lost their creativity.Resident evil 5 is now just some fps game,except that the controls can be ackward with the magnum,because it is really hard to aim.

This is why i sometimes hate mainstream,because its ruining every good genre of game.

topopoz
10-04-2011, 05:00 AM
Resident evil is a different story all together.They are trying to appeal to the fps people who just want an online player mode with no creativity,and in so they lost their creativity.Resident evil 5 is now just some fps game,except that the controls can be ackward with the magnum,because it is really hard to aim.


I'll troll here a little bit...
But RE4 was not 3rd Person Shooter as well.? =D

Nostalgia gamer
10-04-2011, 05:49 AM
I'll troll here a little bit...
But RE4 was not 3rd Person Shooter as well.? =D

Re4 was more horror than re5,and less of a shooter.
Sure,it was the beginning of re series taking the action series due to popularity,but i kinda liked it.Not as much as the other ones granted,but i still thought the wii version was fun.

topopoz
10-04-2011, 06:08 AM
Re4 was more horror than re5,and less of a shooter.
Sure,it was the beginning of re series taking the action series due to popularity,but i kinda liked it.Not as much as the other ones granted,but i still thought the wii version was fun.

RE4 was a Horror. And more of a shooter than the previous RE.

RE5 was just a Shooter, which was fine by me, because at least it does well what it tries to do.

Nostalgia gamer
10-04-2011, 07:01 AM
RE4 was a Horror. And more of a shooter than the previous RE.

RE5 was just a Shooter, which was fine by me, because at least it does well what it tries to do.

Well you say? There are some weapons that have terrible aim.In re4,at least i could aim my magnum more efficiently.

Oh Yeah:what about those lame easy puzzles in the temple? i mean:its called resident evil ffs,i want some scary shit to happen.The game is more like half life or something.

Also:what about the lame acting and rip off of matrix effect? seriously,just watch as wesker uses the matrix effect to dodge,thats just plain lame.It also doesn't help the fact that his whole lines are so bad they are funny as well in the end.

Resident Evil 5 - Cutscenes part 9 - Confrontation with Wesker - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Cliche.

Resident Evil 5 Chris and Sheva VS Wesker airplane cut scene - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Cmon,that is terrible.Slowing down with a breath in between to add more malice? hehehe pretty laughable.

Let's not forget about the cheap quicktime abuse in this game as well.
What is it with quicktime events?

topopoz
10-04-2011, 08:03 AM
Well you say? There are some weapons that have terrible aim.In re4,at least i could aim my magnum more efficiently.

Oh Yeah:what about those lame easy puzzles in the temple? i mean:its called resident evil ffs,i want some scary shit to happen.The game is more like half life or something.

Also:what about the lame acting and rip off of matrix effect? seriously,just watch as wesker uses the matrix effect to dodge,thats just plain lame.It also doesn't help the fact that his whole lines are so bad they are funny as well in the end.

Resident Evil 5 - Cutscenes part 9 - Confrontation with Wesker - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Cliche.

Resident Evil 5 Chris and Sheva VS Wesker airplane cut scene - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Cmon,that is terrible.Slowing down with a breath in between to add more malice? hehehe pretty laughable.

Let's not forget about the cheap quicktime abuse in this game as well.
What is it with quicktime events?

What did you expect after the Change from Code Veronica to RE4?

Say what you will, but RE5 did the action more efficiently than 4 and that's enough reason to be better. Because RE4 is funny, not scary.

Nostalgia gamer
10-04-2011, 08:28 AM
What did you expect after the Change from Code Veronica to RE4?

Say what you will, but RE5 did the action more efficiently than 4 and that's enough reason to be better. Because RE4 is funny, not scary.

Re5 was even less scary and even worse in cliché scenes.
Re4 still had tension,but the tension became lessened during the end.In re5 its non existant.

In re4,you got salvadors,and also the tension of those knights with ashley which made me nervous as heck,plus those ugly spikey monster things which are also freaky.Like every game,sooner or later you get used to it and it becomes less scary.In re5,i was only tense once,and that was the first time i saw the chainsaw majini.

In re4,the first time i went to the village,i panicked because i saw so many enemies coming to town that it overwelmed me and made me panic.
I was even nervous in the farm,because the ganados seemed more frightening.

It was more action,yes,but i don't think it necessarily had better gameplay.
The aiming was a little better,and you had i think more variations in the levels.

In re5,there seemed to be almost all the same in levels,with exception the boat level which you kill the birkin look alike scientist,and that level where you shoot on a bike and the gun overloads.The bosses also seemed too easy as well.

Some of the re4 levels,if not more than a few were too easy as well,especially bosses like:

Salazar:Resident Evil 4 - Salazar Gets Destroyed - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) It comprised of:staying on the right side and shooting the arm on that side,and then shooting the other and then shooting the body part required to get his head to appear.It was actually pretty darn easy.

Verdugo:Resident Evil 4 - Verdugo Fight - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) what you may think,this boss is also quite easy.I won't go into strategy,but i didn't have any trouble with it.

Garrador - Resident Evil 4 - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) I found this one slightly more difficult the first time,and in professional difficulty.You have to be carefull,because his impale attack hurts a lot,and when you fight two of these guys in a row,it can be positively painfull experience.

U3 - Resident Evil 4 - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) I found this one quite difficult,because it comprises of a memory game,and timing your dodges right to avoid using too many medicinal herbs.when you fight u3,it follows you around and breaks down doors easily.Once you know how to do it of course,it becomes less difficult.Since i beat the game on the hardest difficulty,i know more than a few tricks to dealing with the bosses that don't involve cheating.

Resident evil 4: J.J. knifed. - YouTube ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Chaingun ganados:These are without a doubt,one of the hardest enemies in the game.In certain levels,they get a reputation and will cause you to have to restart often.The worse part,is on the helicopter level.These enemies have killed me more than a few times,and are a pain in the butt to kill.I am of course,talking about the hardest difficulty here.

In re5:The part that was cheapest,was against albert wesker in and his fast dodge attacks.I have played online with people against him,and one person is supposed to shoot but didn't,so it would cause us to lose.The last level is the cheapest of all,because it involves sniping him as he walks towards the person who was stuck on the upper platform,and then you have to do a bunch of button mashing quickly.Its not as cheap if you don't use the rocket launcher,then the game becomes a cakewalk.

Also:the multiplayer mode is more fun than the single player extra in re4.

topopoz
10-04-2011, 08:41 AM
Re5 was even less scary and even worse in cliché scenes.
Re4 still had tension,but the tension became lessened during the end.In re5 its non existant.


You did not get my point...

My point is, that they completely jumped the shark with RE4, they can come with flying zombies with butterfly wings on RE6 and if the gameplay is better than 4. IT'S A BETTER GAME. Because RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.

It's not about how cliche or cheezy the scenes are anymore, it's about brainless action. And at that, RE5 did the better job.

Nostalgia gamer
10-04-2011, 10:18 AM
You did not get my point...

My point is, that they completely jumped the shark with RE4, they can come with flying zombies with butterfly wings on RE6 and if the gameplay is better than 4. IT'S A BETTER GAME. Because RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.

It's not about how cliche or cheezy the scenes are anymore, it's about brainless action. And at that, RE5 did the better job.

And who says its better?

I prefer the controls on my wiimote,and the actual gameplay in re4.
Re4 is still scarier than re5.It may not be as good as re cvx,but at least it still has its scares.

topopoz
10-04-2011, 10:38 AM
Re4 is still scarier than re5.It may not be as good as re cvx,but at least it still has its scares.

You Still don't get it...



they completely jumped the shark with RE4, they can come with flying zombies with butterfly wings on RE6 and if the gameplay is better than 4. IT'S A BETTER GAME. Because RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.

It's not about how cliche or cheezy the scenes are anymore, it's about brainless action. And at that, RE5 did the better job.


Anyway, Thread Derailment... Mods, You can move all related posts to the Resident Evil Thread.

Nostalgia gamer
10-04-2011, 11:35 AM
You Still don't get it...




Anyway, Thread Derailment... Mods, You can move all related posts to the Resident Evil Thread.

I hate to say this topopoz,but it is you who doesn't get it.
The name resident evil is for a reason,otherwise,it would be called:Generic first person shooter.

Without the lack of ammo and dodging zombies,its hard to consider it a survival horror game.Even games like silent hill still have their original survival horror theme.

topopoz
10-04-2011, 11:43 AM
I hate to say this topopoz,but it is you who doesn't get it.
The name resident evil is for a reason,otherwise,it would be called:Generic first person shooter.




RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.



RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.



RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.



RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.



RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.



RE stopped to be about survival horror in RE4.

Nostalgia gamer
10-04-2011, 11:56 AM
RE4 still had horror elements.

Lets take it to private message ok? this derailment is going to anger the admins.

Ok here is back to the topic:FFX sphere system at least allowed you to grind.I don't agree with having a limitation of skills.If you want challenge,then don't grind.I prefer this than the game moderating what you can or can't do.

2:Why can't i use a pheonix down on the leader? this seems incredibly stupid
3:why oh why can't i controll the other members?

Vrykolas
10-04-2011, 06:28 PM
I like to grind too, and over levelling can be a very relaxing way to spend a lazy Sunday afternoon. But the amount of grinding you are talking about is surely not worth complaining about? The costs for each new advance from Pulse onwards, is so prohibitively expensive, that even with whole days spent grinding, you have a job to max out before the end.

There is more than adequate provision for power levellers - most people, even confessed grinders, do not max out by the end of the game. The final crystarium unlock is specifically for the post game content. Its a new phase of the game, for which a new set of powers and upgrade possibiltiies are provided.

I don't see the problem with that, and in fact Square Enix have always been first class when it comes to post game content (the Star Ocean series has exceptional post game content, and Final Fantasy always has loads of great hidden bosses and dungeons etc).

I just don't see the problem with withholding extra content for the time when you're going to be able to afford it. We don't expect shops in games to feature the very best weapons right from the first level, simply because if we killed the starting enemies for 7.000 years, we'd be able to afford them, do we? Developers have to use their discretion on when is an appopriate time to unlock each aspect of gameplay, equipment etc.


As for the 'why no phoenix down on the leader?', again you are blaming FF13 for something every game does. Why does the game end in Mass Effect, if Shepard is downed, whilst the party can go down as many times as they like? Your companions in Fallout New Vegas can go down all they like, but if you fall, game over. I fail to see how it is Square or FF13's fault, when no-one complains about it in any of these other games.

And the control system obviously wouldn't work if you could control the others. And again, its not like you can control your party members in ME, or Fallout, or Oblivion or Dungeon Siege... the list goes on. FF13 does not deserve to be singled out when these games get a free pass.


And as a horror fan myself, Resident Evil 4 was not scary. The first section in the village was pretty good, but the rest? Jumping monks with rocket launchers, gatling cannons popping up through the floor, siege catapults, giant walking statues... that game is so retarded. RE5 may not have been perfect, it certainly wasn't a horror game, but at least it felt like a Resident Evil game.

I mean, look at the plot - 'James Leon S Kennedy Bond, coolest man in the universe and winner of floppiest heroic hair cut, makes terrible quips, saves the president of the United States' daughter, foils the evil spanish monk zombie's terrorist plans, gets the girl... oh, and Umbrella got beaten ages ago, so never mind about them...'

Worst. Sequel. Ever.

Nostalgia gamer
10-05-2011, 03:34 AM
There are others who also were very mad at FFXIII,because they had no controll over the characters and inot being able to cast the spells they wanted.

Also:FFXIII is turned based still,Oblivion and fallout3 aren't.

Also:Dragon age origins is real time,and all characters have to die to get a game over,so i don't see why the designers of FFXIII had to do that stupid move.

Also:they put a level cap on each area.Back in FF4-FF9,you could grind and get abilities if you wanted the game to be easier,i said this before.
They also didn't allow you to get the best abilities till the end of the game,like:The abilities that beatrix gets,or:Flare and meteor and ultima.

Why can't FFXIII be that way too?

And about the FFXIII music:I prefered nobuo uematsu music.
There were some ok pieces,but i really prefer nobuo uematsu's work.

Vrykolas
10-05-2011, 07:11 PM
You speak as though FF12 never happned - the combat in that game was real time! And the fans backlashed in royal fashion because of it. FF12 may be well regarded on this forum, but there's a lot of people who stopped playing FF over things like this.

And Dragon Age: Origins is an anomaly. It had been in development for 5 years before it came out, though. When they started work on it, the trend hadn't set in yet. And when it was released, it gathered much praise, precisely because it felt like a return to traditional values.

But the sequel came in for just as passionate criticism when it dropped most of that. It may seem absurd to many of us, but the fact is that analysts speak and companies listen. They tell them that the industry has adopted these changes, and that their games must adopt those changes too, unless they want to be left behind.

They knew that wholesale change to the Mass Effect style of play would go down badly, so they tried to come halfway, speeding the gameplay up, but keeping some features intact (the full party being controllable etc).

And the result - chaos. Fans screaming in anger over the dumbing down, massive backlash, much loved series hobbled almost overnight.

But the analysts aren't entirely wrong - they did have to change it. Because the fact remains that pure RPGs are a niche genre, and whilst they may have got near 100% of that target audience buying the game, they would alienate everyone else. So they tried to use Mass Effect's popularity to aim for a more mass market userbase for the game.

It was a gamble that paid off with Mass Effect 2, because it caught the mainstream gamer's attention, and when you get that volume of people praising your game and playing it, it drowns out the purists who were disgusted at the changes. DA2 didn't catch the mainstream's eye (or rather it did just long enough for them to know they didn't like it).

So I hardly think Square Enix will be looking to Bioware for inspiration, because they have problems of their own!


And I still think you are missing the point with the level cap in FF13. It is tied into the story, it isn't just unlocking because the designers feel it is time for some new abilities etc. It unlocks whenever the characters make personal strides in their story and realise their potential. Like the lack of towns, these decisions may grate on you in a purely gaming sense, but storywise they make perfect sense.

Not to mention that I still think the level cap is more than generous. You don't need to get anywhere near the cap to be good enough to complete the game, nor it is easy at all to reach it without truly extensive grinding. Wanting even more grinding on top of that, is not a trait shared by many western gamers these days!

But anyway, I liked it, you didn't, there we are.

k3nny1550
10-06-2011, 01:38 AM
The reason FFXII's battle system was so terrible wasn't just because it was real time- it was real time AND ATB, having the disadvantages of both and the advantages of neither. It made strategy needlessly complicated with it's Gambit system, movement was too slow, and attacks were still regulated by the ATB gauge instead of being able to attack repeatedly in real time like Kingdom Hearts.

FFXIII's battle system was for me an exercise in how to design a proper battle system. It did away with the real time movement to focus on making ATB flow faster, and by extension sped up the combat to truely insane levels. It emphasized fast, variable strategy over coordinated strategy, which is why I hold it on par with FFX's CTB system in terms of it's overall fun-factor.

Thus far, XIII is my favorite of the Final Fantasies due to the merits of the battle system and the strength of Lighting as a character.

Plus, she punches Snow Villiers in the face. Multiple times. That's got to earn some respect, because Snow deserved it.

Vrykolas
10-06-2011, 10:00 PM
Ah, give Snow a break - he tries his best, and he learns his lesson eventually (Plus, he's an excellent party leader due to his collossal amounts of HP). I liked all the characters by the end of the game, really. They all resolve the most annoying factors of their personality as their characters develop IMO.

And whilst I don't really agree with your criticism of FF12's battle system (it was fine except during the boss battles, which it wasn't suited for and were very, very dull), I do think FF13 has one of the best. I probably prefer FFX-2's system a little more, but they are very similar, so that's perhaps not that surprising.

Nostalgia gamer
10-07-2011, 09:58 AM
I prefer gameplay that allows you to manually choose what spell and have mana and make you use ethers for extra strategy,rather than mindlessly attacking with the same strategy.

I also prefer games which:they may have cutscenes,but not an overkill amount like in FFXIII.I think FFXIII is one of the worse games in the series,along with FF8 and then FF2 on the nes.

FF2 Was bad because it was unbalanced.You literally had a broken spell system that ruined the game.
FF8 system was over complicated and made you spend unecessary amount of time collecting spells.As much as i like some grinding,FF8 was overkill and was just plain annoying.
FFXIII:This system was too easy.It seems like games go from extreme to extreme:Either ridiculous in difficulty,or ridiculously easy.FF legends 3 for an example.I had almost no trouble if not mostly no trouble getting to the last chapters without too much trouble.The fights are only hard if you don't know what to do in those fights,but if you played before,then it is a breeze.I think one of the most badass bosses,is actually cid.He is also the coolest FFXIII character.Why is it that cid is always the most awesome character in final fantasy? it seems like he is always one of the coolest characters.There was a helicopter boss machine thing that killed me a few times,but most of the bosses didn't give me trouble.

Vrykolas
10-07-2011, 03:44 PM
You can manually select spells, and I don't want to hear any talk of just mashing X. The CPU has a strict template of what to use in what situation, but it isn't perfect. It doesn't know what buffs or debuffs are the highest priority, based on the current situation. Its programming lets it take an educated guess, but that's often not correct. Battles progress much smoother and quicker if you manually operate these things - same with Sentinel skills.

The game is offering you the chance to automate choices that are a no brainer. Its not much of a test of skill to select Firaga against an ice enemy, on the offchance you might get nervous and select something else, is it? You can do it manually, or you can save time and let the CPU handle the mundane tasks. You (the player) are there to oversee proceedings and step in when you think your party isn't acting correctly.

And you are the one who sets up how your party acts, and how they can act at any given time, with the combinations of Paradigms you choose. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing how this is any less strategic than any other FF. For my money, it is intensely *more* strategic, and that's certainly how the critics saw it. They complained that it takes so long for the gameplay to open up, but almost to a man, they loved the game from Pulse onwards.

You may find it easy, but many do not - Barthandelus and Orphan are quickly gathering nororiety as some of the hardest bosses in Final Fantasy main campaigns (at least from FF7 onwards anyway). Orphan is currently reckoned to be the hardest end game boss - are you really saying that people like Jecht, Sephiroth and Necron etc are harder?!

FF13 is only easy for the fist half of the game (in terms of game length, not chapters, as Chapters 11-13 are much longer than the preceding chapters). When you arrive on Pulse, the game is anything but easy, unless you stick to the very weedy enemies. If you play carefully however, you can defeat fairly powerful enemies. Conversely, if you don't pay attention, you will (like so many have done) find it hard to beat Barthendelus and Cid at all, let alone easily.

And I reject the notion that there is no strategy. In previous FF games, there were many sections where the only way to succeed was to grind for levels. It didn't matter how good you were at the game, because the enemies just did too much damage. If you understand how to use the paradigms to your best advantage, that is not the case in this game.

I find your comments about FF8 a bit puzzling too. That is a game which is actually easier to finish if you keep everyone low level. You don't need to do any grinding at all to exploit that game!

Nostalgia gamer
10-07-2011, 04:11 PM
I didn't finish ff8 because i got bored,not because of the difficulty.

I prefer to use the spells in FFXIII manually instead of the game playing it out for me.There is more to just casting fire3 on a water or ice elmental and lightning on a water or robotic enemy or flying enemy you know.In previous games,you had enemies who might have not been so obvious who were strong versus almost all magic except for a select few,and i actually still prefer a manual game instead of the game casting spells automatically.

Thing is:It may do the job,but there is a chance that the game will not cast the spell i want on my team in time.
Manually,i can select protect and shell immediately instead of the game guessing which spell they want,even if they usually cast it really early.
I'm just used to playing the game myself.In the old days,you went to big dungeons and discovered better weapons that were elemental that could be useful to the fight,or not depending on if you know what they did.Sometimes they were obviously no brainer,and other times they might have looked good but are a downgrade in weapon overall.I still prefer going to explore and finding weapons instead of the upgrade system in FFXIII which has less exploration and more farming for high lvl parts like:adamantois shells and lon guis item that is rare that can become less rare with that quest item or something that makes the drops less rare.

Vrykolas
10-07-2011, 04:23 PM
I agree, and I do the things you do for the reasons you outline.

My point is that in the easier battles, or when you've finished setting up the buffs you really want, its nice that there is an option to speed things up. In the tougher battles and boss battles, it pays to stay on your toes, and its good that you have to. But in the regular battles, I think its good that you can speed them along.

Because in all FF games, you get to the point where the local monsters are no problem and all you really have to do to win, is just press X. This is no different in those circumstances. But people who say you can just do that all the way through are being ridiculously simplistic about it. Certain battles take forever in that case. And later enemies and bosses just straight up cannot be beaten in this way.

And I never used to bother that much with Elemental attacks. It was too much bother to be equipping and de-equipping when it better, or would actually heal the enemy etc. I just find a decent weapon that works against everyone, or one that inflicts a certain status effect etc. Elemental weapons just weren't worth the bother, because most of the time, the fights in those games were easy enough anyway.

And I cannot agree about FF8 - its in my Top 3 of FF games. Its usually number 2, behind either FF7 or FF12, depending on how I feel that day. The system is very complicated, but once you have the principles down, its easy enough. You don't need to grind for spells, because you'll encounter enemies enough to slowly build up all you need, without even really trying. And ther best spells are in secret areas, or on cerain bosses, so no grinding required there either.