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Carrbunkle
04-26-2002, 11:06 AM
Do you emulate? what do you emulate? Do you think it hurts the industry to emulate games they dont sell anymore?

Green Arrow
04-26-2002, 11:46 AM
I emulate occasionally. I have a SNES emulator just so I can play chrono and the old FF's. Mainly coz they were never released in Australia. However I have seen that FF6 has been released for PSX, it is quite cheap also...if only I still had my PSX.
Do I think it hurst the industry...not really, I mean they do not make these games anymore so there is no profit for them anymore, so whether we get them or not is irrelevant and I don't think it hurts them at all.

rezo
04-26-2002, 03:08 PM
the FFs have been released on playsta as you just said. You should be buying them . If they didn't hit Europe, then import. Its in english.

The problem with emulation comes from the people who were emulating N64s and have GBA roms and NGPC roms when the system was getting no sales.

Neo Xzhan
04-26-2002, 04:23 PM
I have a SNES emulator and i don't think it's illigal, if u had a PS2 emulator and the roms it would be illigal because this concerns copyright, but the SNES games aren't manufactured anymore.

TheUltimate
04-26-2002, 06:22 PM
I have alot of emulators. The sytems I have are:

N64
SNES (one of my favs)
GBA (good but not too many games)
Genesis
Neo Geo (good for that arcady feel)

I think it does hurt the industry but not directly. You see, not too many people would buy an old N64 or an old Snes (even if they coould find one) And even if they would, the games and the system would most likely be used b/c they are no longer produced.

The way the industry is hurt is by people spending their tiime playing these old (and addictive games) The more time spent on playing these games the less time is spent playing the games on the newer systems and the purchase of the newer games.

My roommate for instance has alot of PS2 games and really hasn't touched it since he discovered an NES emulator. That's all he plays video game wise. We haven't purchased a new game since FFX. That's definitely bad dor the industry

Koenma
04-27-2002, 02:58 AM
Well, I do believe Emulation is quite okay as long as the game isn't being made for that system any longer. Like Nintendo (8-bit) games. Who's gonna' buy those, except for the rare ones? So i believe Emulation should be allowed if the System is complete...

I have emula'z for:

NES
SNES
Genesis
Game Boy
Dream Cast (but I never use it...too whacked out)

Kie
04-27-2002, 05:21 AM
I emulate all the times. I got tonnes of ROMS. Course, i don't download N64 or PS or anything, just the old ones that don't make a profit anymore. I've got a lot of DBZ and FFGames.

Kounan.Rey
04-29-2002, 09:07 AM
Well...i have a Snes emulator and not too many roms...all FF's...

TK
04-29-2002, 02:28 PM
Just to clear up anyone's misgivings, it's always illegal to use emus. People will say "It's legal if you delete it after 24 hours" or "it's legal if you own the game" but it's still not. It is legal to own backup copys of things that you own, but it's not legal for them to be distributed on the internet, so if you d/l them you are involving yourself in piracy which is still illegal.

Personally, I don't have a problem with emus when people use them to try out games that they are thinking of buying or when they want to play translated versions of Japan-only games like Sieken Densetsu 3, but it pisses me the hell off when they own ROMs for systems that are in business because it's just candy-coated stealing. It especially pissed me off that people would d/l NeoGeo Pocket emus, like rezo said, because that was a fantastic system that never got the recognition it deserved, and if it hadn't, my beloved SNK might not have gone bankrupt. Bottom line, support companies, don't steal them.

Oh, and I thought I might also point out that warez aren't supposed to be discussed here ^^;;

Bahamut ZERO
04-29-2002, 03:43 PM
I've been reading this thread for a while, and I've been thinking about my reply, and I think I've managed to word it enough in my head to put it in here. Hold onto your seats, this ride could get rough...

... I agree that the legality issues behind ROMs. I understand completely when companies say that it's infringing copyright, and that they should have the rights over if their software should get downloaded or not. At the same time, I sympathise with the players in regions where certain games aren't released. Places like Europe, Australia, etc, where Final Fantasy VI has just seen the light of day, and Final Fantasy X is still pending.

Which is why I have a novel, and slighty controversial, idea. Why don't the makers of the games rip the ROMs themselves, and sell them over the 'net? The same with Emulators. There are enough people out there willing to buy ROMs and Emulators at a discounted price, myself being one of them. I'd love to play the older Final Fantasies, the Dragon Quests, the Zeldas, all of the old school RPGs that were never released in Europe. And I'd willingly pay to download the ROMs, provided it wasn't extortinate.

Unfortunately, this doesn't look like it's going to happen, and I'm not willing to download anything illegally at the moment, so I'll have to sit and hope Squaresoft do some conversion skillz, or that I learn Japanese soon.

Neo Xzhan
04-29-2002, 03:53 PM
So if it's illigal then the roms may not be found on the internet right???

Carrbunkle
04-29-2002, 04:11 PM
you can still get them...so there must be some legal way to use them. probably as a backup for games you own for only 24 hours. But I don't think there should be any laws against playing games like Sieken Densetsu 3, or DBZ: Hyper Dimension, when they are only in japan and not in production anymore.

Neo Xzhan
04-29-2002, 04:23 PM
So how can it be illigal then, I mean the SNES is dead it is not manufactured any more. It is legal to make backup CD's from ur own games as long u own the original so downloading a rom should be legal too.

Carrbunkle
04-29-2002, 05:06 PM
It should. But I don't think the higher ups are willing to release their products until they've milked the very last of money from them, and even if they are not planning on doing anytime soon, I don't think they will change.

(Who likes kittys? I love kittys!)

rezo
04-29-2002, 08:50 PM
Oh, and I thought I might also point out that warez aren't supposed to be discussed here ^^;;


I'll allow it, as long as they're "discussing". If they post any links,
I'm chopping them down. Someone put up a link to FF2 previously. That's not cool. That games available on playstation. GO TO THE STORE.


You are allowed to own copies. I am unaware of the circumstances involved in obtaining those copies, but if I download a rom of a game I own, I do it with the impression that its legal. Perhaps its illegal to make them publicly available.


Games made for "japan only" are often intended to be sold "only in japan". This is why they have regional lockouts. Basically, they don't want you owning games they don't release in your region. But if you buy it, you're giving them support. I remember Enix saying that translated roms was cutting into their wishes to bring classic series over to the US, whereas they get rereleases often in Japan. One of the EGM rom support issues. probably 2 years ago if you're interested in digging it up.

Frozen Dragon
05-10-2002, 09:00 PM
What is an emulator? Is it a certain game consol that plays different games or something else?

Crazy Chocobo
05-10-2002, 10:14 PM
It's a program that allows you to play copies, or ROMs, of games from consoles on your computer. I believe there is an emulator that lets you play your playstation discs on your computer. (bleem, maybe? before it went chapter 11?)

I tried emulating the original metroid once (which I own), felt that it was more fun on the TV, so that ended my life with emulators, after trying out some SNES ones as well.

Nanaki XIII
05-10-2002, 10:16 PM
An emulator is a program that plays video games on your computer and it is all free usually. I have so many ROMs for SNES and actually it is legal if you have a copy of the game.

Frozen Dragon
05-12-2002, 04:23 PM
Where can you get them?

Carrbunkle
05-15-2002, 07:01 PM
la

la

la

>=( -rezo

cant remember anything else atm... oh well

SSJ
05-16-2002, 10:52 AM
I get all the Super NES roms I love, classics like CronoTrigger and ff6. I was never able to get ahold of the actual copy, so the rom was the only way.

Tokiko
05-17-2002, 03:25 PM
It is quite interesting indeed... We are fans, we are not sane, and we are not always willing to wait 8 years until we might get a game... We´re European.
And even after the release of FFVI in Europe... let´s face it, it took them 8 years and they did not even make one little translation while the rom is available in French, German etc. There are FF fans that don´t speak English in Europe. I guess their choice between legality and illegality is not that hard as the industry might fancy...
´
I´ve played Chrono Cross (I have the original NTSC version) on my PSX emulator... simply because I could not find a place where I could have that PSX chipped...

Emulation is, and has always been, to me a solution to a problem. The problem is that some gaming companies don´t think about us and we have to help ourselves.

It is illegal... that´s sad. But it does not harm Squaresoft if I play a game I would not play otherwise. And I have some pride, too. I am willing to spend money on the games that get an American release.

RED_XIII#2
05-22-2002, 06:52 PM
Carbunkle, you aren't supposed to provide links to sites, rezo said that in this thread. I will probably be one of the last to post on this thread, but anyways. If the game company doesn't make the game anymore, they make no money on that game. So I think that roms for discontinued games should be legal. And I liked theidea of gamemakers having their own sites were you can download games that they made that aren't in production anymore for a little fee. I personally own hundereds of roms(a cd-r almost completely filled) but never have the time to play them, and only about 2o of them I would actually try to beat. My fav. is the snes and nes emulaters(those were the coolest systems). Since the thread is closing, use a search engine and look under "roms" or "emulaters". But it is always funner to play games on consoles for some reason, probably feel less guilty I guess.:rolleyes:

jimfiel57
05-23-2002, 08:02 AM
I think that emulation is ok, i have Zsnes and a Dgen. This is how I play the early Final Fantasy games and some others like mario kart, mario world, turtles in time and all of the sonics. I don't see the fuss that is made by sega and nintendo. You can't get these games anymore (well not in the uk) and they are very addictive fun games. Visit this website below for some genesis roms (it is in Spanish but is not to hard to understand after gamesworld/ put snes-a.html for loads of snes roms

gone- rezo

jimfiel57
05-23-2002, 08:03 AM
Was I allowed to do that put a link to a ROM site. Oh well Happy Gaming

rezo
05-23-2002, 10:50 AM
thats right. no posting rom links. I should've been checking this topic more often.

anyways


I get all the Super NES roms I love, classics like CronoTrigger and ff6. I was never able to get ahold of the actual copy, so the rom was the only way.


BOTH of these games were released on playstation. And that, is the problem with emulation.

~Link~
05-28-2002, 08:52 AM
emulation sucks, because it ruins gaming. I only use it for classic games which are not sold anymore.

Evad D'Aragon
06-05-2002, 04:01 PM
Emulation is pretty much like the Mp3s...It all depends on the intention of the user...


As for me, I believe emulation is good, if used properly...


Let's face it, guys : WHY do you think Square even bothered publishing FFV along with the Anthology here ? Because Square realized the popularity of the game since so many people downloaded the ROM...Had emulation not existed, allow me to seriously doubt about the U.S. release of the Anthology,or at least the specific releases of FFIV Hard Type and FFV...

However, for those that would only use emulation because, it's , "like, cheaper than buying the games", in THAT case, we can say it's ruining the gaming industry...But then again, you can't possibly control everything, and so as long as something would have more good sides than bad sides, it means it's good...And this is what I believe about emulation.

rezo
06-06-2002, 12:22 AM
I thought ff5 was included in the release arbitrarily, as part of helping establish the ff brand. it was one that didn't make these shores, and so it makes sense to include it. they didn't include 4 until later, remember.


There is also the case of Namco(I believe. . .it was an old article.), who doesn't like their games being translated because they believe it will harm plans of a re-release. it may increase interest in a game(a translation I mean), but this is interest among people who lose a reason to get the game from the company. look at this topic, where one fellow goes after the roms of the "Classics he can't find", both of which were re-released for people like him. Case in point(in regards to Namco): perhaps the "Tales of" series, the final two were released here, but the first one was not, even though it was on the playsta.

double - edge it is. If you're supporting translated roms, you should also support the translated releases that come here, but as usual, it seems most don't.

Evad D'Aragon
06-07-2002, 09:46 AM
Rezo, you're exactly saying what I meant :


Square actually did NOT want to release FFIV hard type at first, remember ? And Square actually placed the Anthology here because they saw the popularity of FFV over the net...even if they did not "officially" state so, it more than makes sense to say so.


Square changed its mind about Chrono Trigger and FFIV on the PSX mainly because of Internet...Emulation is playing a big part of it. At least that's what I believe...

However, I agree with you when you say emulation is a double-edged sword...but like most things, and like I said, all depends on the person who emulates...

rezo
06-07-2002, 05:13 PM
and I seriously think that using the FF series as a gauge of the merits of emulation is misleading.

you have to consider what got people interested in the FF roms in the first place, and that was, the huge popularity of FF 7, and the establishment of it as a brand, along with Squaresoft. This interest would have existed whether roms were there or not. roms made it easier for the interested people to act on them. There would have been an interest in the FF classic releases whether the games were emulated or not,and FF4 was released with Chrono Trigger, because people did not like the fact that it was left out and acted on it, at least, that was my understanding.


If we're talking the benefits of games that become popular based on emulation, then you would have to get into the slightly deviant games(of that time) as far as knowledge of them is concerned. A good example would be Tales of Phantasia, which I mentioned earlier. A game that people did not know about , that drew a large amount of interest , nearly solely from emulation, and this may have helped bring attention to Namco's sequels that were released here. But it was not the cause. Tales of Destiny was released fairly early, and Tales of Destiny 2 was released in far better circumstances for RPGs than the first was. If Tales of Phantasia,PS rev, were to be released here, I would consider emulation to have played a role in that. definitely. For the final fantasies, I don't consider it much of a factor.

In regards to the double - edge, once again, I am of the mind that people are more likely to merely play a rom and ignore the ensuing release than to support it. There are decent people out there, who aren't abusive of fringe emulation, but I would consider them in the minority. And when you look at a system like the NGPC(one of the few that could be genuinely harmed by emulation, because of a general lack of support), and the N64, and GBC and GBA, and people are getting these games when they come out, and playing through them. Many will not care to go out and actually buy the game when they can get something else. On the otherhand, others will use it as a glorified "renting" to test a game out. But the blade cuts a bit deeper into the negative end of things. and. . .I . . .hate. . .metaphors. I wish I didn't use that line.

Evad D'Aragon
06-07-2002, 06:37 PM
First of all, I am NOT using the Final Fantasy series for showing the benefits of emulation, I'm merely showing an example with it...Otherwise, I could as well say you're using the Tales series to promote emulation...

Why would you consider emulation to play a part in getting the Tales known, while you wouldn't for FFs ?


As far as I'm concerned, when FFIV and FFVI were released here on the SNES, back in the 90's, they were named FFII and III, respectively...


Now, take into account Internet and emulation wouldn't exist, what would Square probably have done ? Naming FFVII into FFIV for the U.S when it got released in 1997 ...It makes sense, because then, not enough people would have know some of the games never got released here...


Now, do you understand where I'm getting at ?


As for FFIV and Chrono Trigger, Square simply wouldn't have bothered with just a dozen people writing them mail to publish the games here...It's because tens of thousands of people used Internet to tell them...


However, I do agree with the most part of what you said when you say most people won't bother buying a game they already played through emulation...but then again, society's composed mainly of bad people you know...That's got nothing against the fact emulation is, in my opinion, more profitable to gaming industry than it is harmful...Otherwise, all the gaming companies would have won all their trials long ago, if it were THAT bad...But don't get me wrong, I never said it isn't potentially harmful at all, it just depends on what WE do with it. If you don't understand what I say, let's look at it this way : a machine , all by itself, isn't capable of doing anything harmful unless WE humans either use it for that or program it for that.

rezo
06-07-2002, 07:08 PM
I didn't say you used FF to promote emulation(rechecking post. . .I don't see it), what I was doing was saying that there wasn't much of a relation between the FF classics release , and emulation, as far as the interest in those games is concerned.
You remember when FF7 was announced? emulation was in serious infancy(certainly not prevalent to the degree to influence the decisions of Squaresoft), and FF7 was still announced as FF7. This was a plan on Square's part to clear up confusion(or further confusion) as far as I could tell, and they said.

The interest in the older FFs came from FF7. If it had been us, and the other small amount of SNES RPG followers demanding a game to be published, or protesting, you're right, there wouldn't be much of an effect. However, it was the popularity of FF7(and 8 came before the re-releases, did it not? around the same time?) that led to the interest in the older FFs, not emulation. Emulation is what people used to . . .sate . . . their interest in the series. If the roms had not been there, they would have been interested in the classics, partly because of their newfound interest in the newer games. I should also add that magazines were doing monthly updates on FF7(Remember? 10 new pics! 10 pages to show you the 10 pics! <- that sort of thing), along with the "other final fantasies" little tidbits they'd throw in, and the general curiousity of what games fans found themselves to be missing out on. It was this general interest in FF that led to FF5 recieving attention, where it recieved that attention was through emulation, but this was a case of people seeking something, and finding it;and not a case of being immersed in something to find something else. Without emulation, these people would have been in the common shock of finding out that FF5 was finally coming, instead of wondering blindly what it was when it was announced. you said earlier:


Let's face it, guys : WHY do you think Square even bothered publishing FFV along with the Anthology here ? Because Square realized the popularity of the game since so many people downloaded the ROM...Had emulation not existed, allow me to seriously doubt about the U.S. release of the Anthology,or at least the specific releases of FFIV Hard Type and FFV...

As you see. I've been saying that the interest in FF came from the later FF releases, whereas, Tales of Phantasia, is a game that better represents your side of a game gaining popularity due to emulation. However, this isn't something that has been released. If it had, what you've said in this quote, relative to Tales of Phantasia, would be true.

before emulation, many people may not have known what it was. After, it is very popular. umm. . ."comparatively". See?


Also, consider the Lunar games. Games released previously on the Sega CD, which very few people owned, let alone those wanting for RPGs, and yet, the re-release sells in excess of 250000 copies. That is a lot, considering that there was not emulation to help it gain interest, it was a re-release of an old game, that many would not have access too, and none of the brand support or present interest that the Square re-releases carried, and we should realize that the RPG market has changed quite a bit. Given this games success, its not reasonable to assume that emulation played a role in the success of a release with much more in its favor. It may have played some role, as many things do, but to what I would consider a small degree. Certainly not a degree that is cause for it being credited as you have done in your quote.


I didn't say there was anything wrong with computers now. I've criticized the actions. And you're not taking evil machines into account. But you should. they're evil.

Evad D'Aragon
06-07-2002, 07:58 PM
Ah...I must have misunderstood what you said then...And if this time I do understant what you're saying ...

Then we do agree about the positive and negative sides of emulation, we simply don't agree about how much this affects everything ...


About the Lunar series ( wonderful series BTW, especially Lunar II ) , it got praised a lot in the gaming magazines...but how do you think gaming magazines got so much information so easily if it isn't via Internet ? There WERE some magazines before Internet, but ONLY the official ones (like, for instance, Nintendo Power) that , since they were directly affiliated to the company, would know about it...otherwise...


And, just to mention something not so relevant : the original Lunar and Lunar II on Sega CD are VERY easily emulable...

rezo
06-08-2002, 01:11 AM
"eeewww" you like Lunar? Melodramatic to the point where I wanted it to turn into a human so that I could pummel it! I liked the characters in part one though. " :) "





emulating Lunar? though I am aware(most people I know play Sega CDs on their computer). . .but they own the CDs.


certainly at the time the PS games were coming out, downloading CD games wasn't a very big thing at all. . .and I don't know the status of Sega CD emulation at that time.

Evad D'Aragon
06-08-2002, 08:06 AM
Well...finding Sega CDs ISOs is just as easily downloadable as PSX ISOs, at least the popular ones, like the Lunars ... or Shining Force CD, for that matter...


And the emulators for Sega CD , though a few, are perfectly doing the job...


And, how come you didn't like the Lunar series ? I believe it rocked !

rezo
06-08-2002, 12:44 PM
"we will defeat you with the power of humanity!"


"You don't understand! The real power of Lunar is in the humans! They have something in them that we can't fathom!"


"No matter how much you beat on us, we will never give up! We can't lose , because our will is too strong!"




generally, all of that kind of stuff. And the fact that, instead of being effort(like it is for most idealists in RPGs), there actually was a magical "power of humanity" in this game. Making it very hard, to take anything seriously, and in that respect, I mean, care about whats going on. I am speaking specifically, about the ending, where such lines are repeated, over, and over and over. x_X


Mystere was funny. Unlike part 1, I didn't like the characters, so there was nothing to keep me interested in what was a basic game. Except for the ability to run away from random battles.

Evad D'Aragon
06-08-2002, 05:07 PM
Hey, what have you got against the power of Humanity ??? Lol Just kidding...


I liked the characters, they are so cliché, yet so attractive to see :)

SPOILER AHEAD

Ghaleon simply rocks, might be one of the best villains of RPG history... You can see him evolve from good to bad then good again...And his voice actor fit him so well :)

END OF SPOILER

rezo
06-08-2002, 05:39 PM
interesting thing about that Ghaleon.



um. . .


spoiler.





he doesn't really evolve from good to bad. he just switched. Then he was bad, now he's teh good. Its like his secret garden. They never actually developed a good side to him(outside of deciding he had one), so they just show you that garden so that you can say "whaaat!", and they pretend that adds depth to the character, by avoiding actual development.


end of . . .spoiler?


the voice actor grated on my ears. . . but it fit, yes.

you know what. I bet people that see the word spoiler still read anyways.

Evad D'Aragon
06-10-2002, 03:54 PM
lol On THAT, I agree with you ...even if we write spoiler ahead, people would read it anyway...at least I know I do lol



but just to be respect most of the mods' wishes ....lol



SPOILER AHEAD


They didn't used the secret garden to avoid developping a good side to Ghaleon...How about the fact that they clearly state in Lunar Ghaeleon was one of the Four Heroes and Dyne's best friend ? That alone already proves he does have a good side at first...But since that's in the past, and not absolutely relevant to the main story ( which evolves around Alex first, then Hiro ), it wasn't developped more than necessary...


END OF SPOILER

rezo
06-10-2002, 05:44 PM
but even in the case of what you've just said, that part of
his character is indirectly presented, for the most part. like "see, he has this, or was part of this group", but any changes are not a part of the story, they're just applied to him as seen fit.









this post is vague and spoiler free.