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The Anti-Existence
01-31-2007, 08:25 PM
In this topic, we will be guaging, by storyline (not game mechanics), who is the strongest antagonist of the seires, who is the second-strongest and so-on to the weakest. As the title says, only the main enemies of the games. Also we use the most powerful incarnation of the characters.

So, rank them.

Agent0042
01-31-2007, 09:35 PM
Is this an organized competition? Are we supposed to debate merits? What's the structure?

The Anti-Existence
01-31-2007, 10:21 PM
The strucutre is loose. But I obviously want some debating. Afterall, we need to discuss who is the strongest.

So, let's start off with who is the most powerful.

Feats take priority.

Agent0042
01-31-2007, 10:37 PM
Okay, well, in terms of feats, I think we most need to be considering Kefka and Kuja.


Kefka --- VI - Rearranged the face of an entire planet, really messing things up and killing many people. Killed and took control of espers, took down an empire and created a tower to his own fanaticism then kept people in check with his Ray of Judgment.

Kuja --- IX - Incited wars that destroyed entire nations and really screwed up others. Destroyed an entire planet, and severely fucked up Gaia by filling it with Mist and spreading the Iifa Tree's roots throughout the world.


Honorable mention --- Vayne Solidor --- XI - For killing off his own father, then taking control of an entire empire and his forces. Knew what he wanted and stood a good shot at getting it, but was never actually out to destroy the world. In fact, the first and only main FF villain I know of whose eventual goal wasn't world destruction.

Hex Omega
02-01-2007, 03:22 AM
Is this going to be another Kefka vs Kuja debate?

Because we know what happens when we debate about that. 5 pages of a stalemate, arguement of sanity vs insanity etc etc.

Kakarot
02-01-2007, 05:34 AM
Is this going to be another Kefka vs Kuja debate?

Yes. A debate like this will never work, since every FF world is different, and each villain has varying resources, and the winner will either be "Kefka because he has the magic statues", or "Kuja in his Trance form". The strongest, though, is impossible to judge, e.g. If Kefka had control of all magic in the world, where does that leave FF7's Meteor and Holy? A better title for this debate would be: "Which FF world has the most power available to the villains of that game?"

EDIT: Almost every villain of FF had the power to destroy/enslave the world. Let's not confuse ability with accomplishments.

Alvinz
02-01-2007, 05:45 AM
Which ever villain gave you nightmares is easily the most evil.

The Anti-Existence
02-01-2007, 09:23 AM
Because we know what happens when we debate about that. 5 pages of a stalemate, arguement of sanity vs insanity etc etc.

Evil intent and power-levels aren't the same. Just because Kefka i insane doesn't mean he's weaker or stronger than another villain. So, it won't be sanity vs. insanity.


Yes. A debate like this will never work, since every FF world is different, and each villain has varying resources, and the winner will either be "Kefka because he has the magic statues", or "Kuja in his Trance form". The strongest, though, is impossible to judge,

I don't agree. Potential is there and can be judged by feats or statements. For instance, Kefka controlled all magic. Perhaps that makes him more powerful than anyone else? Yet Neo Exdeath was The Void, having his own essence combined with its cosmic energies. We can presume from what we have seen or what was said who was the strongest even if there is no definite answer.


e.g. If Kefka had control of all magic in the world, where does that leave FF7's Meteor and Holy?

It leaves them out of the debate as neither is relevant. Holy and Meteor are materia and were only usable via lots of preptime. Besides, a Meteor...how impressive is a slow-ass giant rock compared to planet-wrecking? Like I said, look at what we saw and judge how strong they were.


A better title for this debate would be: "Which FF world has the most power available to the villains of that game?"

That's far too long.

This is going nowhere and fast. Okay, people. Listen up.

We are discussing and debating who is the most powerful villain. Other unimportant factors such as the resources available to them are irrelevant. Which antagonist showed or could theoretically have the potential to be the strongest? We go by feats and statements and logical deduction.

Hex Omega
02-01-2007, 09:53 AM
In that case, Kuja. He annihalated an entire planet pretty much single-handly. And withstood a blast from Bahamut.

ROKI
02-01-2007, 10:43 AM
Yes, it seems that kuja is the most powerfull one for the reasons Diablo pointed.

As far as i love Kefka, he is not powerfull at all. If i remember he had to use soldiers to kill the Espers so he could take the magic stones. In his own he is a siple nothing in power ;)

Agent0042
02-01-2007, 11:16 AM
Yeah, Kuja easily. He has power and uses it to great effect.

Oh and


It leaves them out of the debate as neither is relevant. Holy and Meteor are materia and were only usable via lots of preptime. Besides, a Meteor...how impressive is a slow-ass giant rock compared to planet-wrecking? Like I said, look at what we saw and judge how strong they were.
Word-up. Meteor was the suckage. Sephiroth was not an effective villain in terms of power.

Desert Wolf
02-01-2007, 01:28 PM
Going on stats then Ultimecia would be with 1 mil MP.

Alvinz
02-02-2007, 08:36 AM
Going on music, then Kefka would win with easily the best theme song in the piano collections. That's right all your Sephiroth and FFVII fans... One Winged Angel sounds shit on the piano.

Judge Bergan
02-02-2007, 08:47 AM
^ I liked the remixed version in AC XD


Honorable mention --- Vayne Solidor --- XII - For killing off his own father, then taking control of an entire empire and his forces. Knew what he wanted and stood a good shot at getting it, but was never actually out to destroy the world. In fact, the first and only main FF villain I know of whose eventual goal wasn't world destruction.

^ I like you lots <3

Zantetsuken Overload
02-02-2007, 09:43 PM
Well, I thought Sephiroth was pretty strong. He ran a Midgar Zolm through using a tree trunk, and he didn't even bat an eyelid.:-P I thought that was cool, but maybe I just have low values. XD

Agent0042
02-02-2007, 10:13 PM
Midgar Zolom isn't anything big. You can defeat it easily after gaining the buggy if you use the right skills and stuff.

Revaninja
02-02-2007, 10:44 PM
Agreed when I was mastering the Enemy skill materia I had to be careful and not kill them in 2 attacks by the time I got iny Bronco but I overlevel as a norm.
As for most powerful Kefka does have merit in both deeds and power since as he said most powerful incarnation. Kefka enslaved Terra or Tina depending on your localization, Posioned an entire Castle, Tried to Burn down another, reguarly killed off grunts or abused them, Killed off so many espers it is not even funny, Killed Leo, Killed the emperor becoming a king slayer, Reshaped the world, Enslaved countless souls to his tower, controled the world in a wild and unpredicatable way, and finally he had the power of goddesses.

Kuja was also powerful. He started a continent war the likes of which have never been seen, is responsible for untold amounts of death,Created life for the sole reason to cause death and destruction, destroyed an entire world by HIMSELF, nearly destroyed all life,Killed a Queen which I think makes him a King Slayer or Queen slayer, and tried to kill off all his Kin this earning Kin Slayer. Just as evil as Kefka in the long run.

The really most evil person though and most powerful is Yu-Yevon or whatever his name is in FFX. He turned his whole entire people into Faith just to keep the idea of Zanarkand alive, created Sin,killed UNCOUNTABLE lives, trapped a world for a 1000 years in a cycle of death and false hope, Destroyed the dreams of all the summoners who have done everything they could inculding their own lives to bring but a few short years of peace to spira all to see it absorbed in Sin as they die, a true immortal and internal powerhouse, and truly the most evil he keeps souls bound to life who should move on enternally dancing a tune of dreams and half-awareness for a 1000 years.

In that respect Kefka and Kuja are small time since their actions either didn't finish their goals or where twarted and reversed very quickly. Sin and Yu-Yevon achieved their goals and kept it for a 1000 years until he absorbed the wrong Aeon who forced an end to it. Without Jecht giving Tidus what help he could they would never have found a way to kill Yu-Yevon.

Agent0042
02-02-2007, 10:57 PM
I thought Yu Yevon was mindless, though, at least the version we ended up fighting. I don't think he intended to keep it going for 1000 years. Didn't the fayth say that now he only dreams, that he doesn't even really have any awareness of what he's doing anymore? Hang on, I'm gonna pull up the script...


Fayth: Yes... If you defeat Yu Yevon, it will end. Tell me, what do you know about Yu Yevon?
Tidus: He's what makes Sin come back!
Yuna: Sin is his armor. It protects him.
Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil. He is awake, yet he dreams. But... maybe not forever.
Tidus: Yeah, that's right. Because we're ending it.

Revaninja
02-02-2007, 11:08 PM
I know which is what makes his actions even more heartless and evil. They are evil acts that by that point are being commited by what amounts to a childs mentality. And no where did I say he was an evil mastermind that goes to Kuja I just said Sin and Yu-Yevon were the most evil. Sometimes Evil is not in the plans we make but in our everyday to day actions.

Agent0042
02-02-2007, 11:10 PM
But can an action be considered "evil" if there is no conscious intent behind it?

Revaninja
02-02-2007, 11:31 PM
Yes if they act produces an evil thing then yes. If a bird drops Crap on someones windshield and they kill a person while looking at it the bird and driver both did Evil acts without any intent behind it. Cause and effect might be a B**** but unfortunatly it rules our world more often then naught. I once had a man Die on me that I was taking care of for a retirement home I worked for if any time one of my actions taken or not taken is the result of that sweet old man dieing then it is completly my fault and I shall ever hold that gulit and knowledge of what if. So yes even if there is no Intent or conscious Intent behind it if it creates Evil then it was Evil. I know most people won't like that Idea but that is how I feel and hold myself to even God I hold it to. There are no freebies were Evil is concerned we each will or have been gulity of evil it is up to us to understand this repeant and try to stop evil. I care not for Heaven or Hell I just never want to hear again someone has died and wonder if it was my fault.

ROKI
02-03-2007, 01:13 AM
Well Final Fantasy X hardly has a main villain. You have Yunalesca, Seymour, the other Maysters, Sin, Yu Yevon and I agree with Agent, Yu Yevon cannot control or understand really what he is doing.

Revaninja
02-03-2007, 02:43 AM
I aslo agree Yu-Yevon can't control himself but that doesn't make him any less evil or his acts untrue. He has accomplished them without a mind and personality only focus on a goal that is what makes him even more scary in the long run.

Desert Wolf
02-03-2007, 07:03 AM
*Possible spoiler*


A villian thats rarely mentioned in this thread is X-Death. He was just as evil and any of the others and kicked ass more than anyone imo. He did suck up half the world into the void.

Zantetsuken Overload
02-03-2007, 08:33 AM
Ok... By now, I'm convinced that I was wrong about Sephiroth. Thank you for reminding us about X-Death, he was one of my favorites.

Alvinz
02-03-2007, 09:12 AM
I've got it! The most villainous villain is the chocobo. Well at least its theme song. It's so evil, so manipulative. It's get stuck in your head and repeats and repeats and repeats and repeats and repeats and repeats...

Roth Arkon
02-03-2007, 09:35 AM
Sephiroth.
I'm probably the only one to say it... because its 'uncool' to like Sephiroth.

The fact that Kuja destroyed a world isn't impressive, Ultimecia could have done it, Sephiroth could've done it too. The only reason he pulled it off is because Zidane and his crew were shit heroes. AVALANCHE got to Sephiroth before he succeeded and SeeD defeated the Sorceress before she succeded. Perhaps if Zidane had struck the killing blow earlier, Kuja woul;d never have destroyed Terra.

The reason I'm backing Sephiroth is that he came back and has the potential to keep coming back. Kuja's dead and Ultimecia is stuck in a time loop.

Sephiroth has the power and the ability to return from the brink of death.

Swedish Fish
02-03-2007, 09:51 AM
Sephiroth. I'm probably the only one to say it... because its 'uncool' to like Sephiroth.

I won't even respond to this.


The fact that Kuja destroyed a world isn't impressive, Ultimecia could have done it, Sephiroth could've done it too. The only reason he pulled it off is because Zidane and his crew were shit heroes. AVALANCHE got to Sephiroth before he succeeded and SeeD defeated the Sorceress before she succeded. Perhaps if Zidane had struck the killing blow earlier, Kuja would never have destroyed Terra.

It's really not important whether or not Sephiroth could have destroyed the world. He didn't. Kuja did. Kefka did the equivalent. Sephiroth waited for you to come and kill him. Kuja and Kefka didn't worry about the protagonists in the story. They devoted all of their time and energy into furthering the plot line.


The reason I'm backing Sephiroth is that he came back and has the potential to keep coming back. Kuja's dead and Ultimecia is stuck in a time loop.

Sephiroth has the power and the ability to return from the brink of death.

He can return from the brink of death because Square needed him for a sequel.

ROKI
02-03-2007, 11:04 AM
Ive changed my mind. Quina almost ate Mog. Isnt that evil?



Sephiroth.
The fact that Kuja destroyed a world isn't impressive, Ultimecia could have done it, Sephiroth could've done it too. The only reason he pulled it off is because Zidane and his crew were shit heroes. AVALANCHE got to Sephiroth before he succeeded and SeeD defeated the Sorceress before she succeded. Perhaps if Zidane had struck the killing blow earlier, Kuja woul;d never have destroyed Terra.


And Brahne could had developed weapons of mass destruction and blowed the entire Gaia off!

Agent0042
02-03-2007, 11:08 AM
Yeah, Brahne's terribly evil --- her sheer ugliness was a scourge upon the world.

Roth Arkon
02-03-2007, 11:12 AM
Regardless of the money making behind it, he did come back.

I'll accept that Sephiroth is an A-typical bad guy who monologues and spares his victims so that he can kill them later. Bad move.

However! Kuja was not. If girlface Zidane had slain him before he had a chance to destroy Terra, he would have lost the only good point about his Bad Guy status besides starting a war... but lets face it, any politician can pull that off.

ROKI
02-04-2007, 12:42 AM
Ok lets see. Kuja started a war, killed Brahne, tried to kill Eiko to take her eidolons, destroed Alexandria using Bahamut, forced Zidane to go and get him a magic stone (dont remember its name) else he would kill all his friends, "forced" the black mages to follow him by giving them false hopes, killed Garland and destroyed Terra.

KnightOfTerra
02-04-2007, 02:27 AM
In that case, Kuja. He annihalated an entire planet pretty much single-handly. And withstood a blast from Bahamut.

So what? He withstood a blast from Bahamut...Seifer in FF8 took down Odin without moving!

Roth Arkon
02-04-2007, 05:59 AM
Lets see...

Sephiroth wiped out a village, Sephiroth survived for massive lentghs of time in the Lifestream (A feat thought to be impossible, look what it did to Cloud over a short stretch), Sephiroth killed President Shinra... as well as everyone across three floors of the heavilly guarded Shinra facility, Sephiroth skewered a Midgar Zolom on to a tree trunk, Sephiroth killed the last of the Ancients, Sephiroth summoned Meteor.

All of this was done by clones of Sephiroth... not even his full strentgh. Spiritual fusions with Jenova to represent him.

As for manipulation, he warped Cloud into beleiving he was a clone, a failed experiment and had him retreive the Black Materia for him. He almost made him kill Aeris/Aerith.

Later in a sword fight he would go on to obliterate the entire front of the skycraper building previously owned by the Shinra company. Before that he had the power to control the weather, casting the region, maybe even the world into shadow for their battle.

A far more impressive list to me. :P

Revaninja
02-04-2007, 10:36 AM
And Cloud won aganist the real thing quite easily each and every SINGLE time aganist the really thing.
Nibelhiem-Sp?- Cloud was just a grunt snuck up on sephiroth while carring a sword he probably could barely lift at that time ran through or cut open depending on Last order or FFVII respectivly. He then got run through while chasing Sephiroth down picked up by the blade through his guts somehow gathered the strength to fight back aganist the strength of a Legendary First Class SOLDIER grip the sword through his gut force himself to his feet and toss Sephiroth into a wall hard enough to crumble it or into the Lifestream was again based on your viewing choice.

Second time Cloud kicked Sephiroth's tail in with ONE attack and one alone. He destroyed the real shirtless Sephiroth body that has been preserved at full strength in the Life stream cyrstal.

Third and hopefully final time around Cloud who has just fought and defeated 3 Sephiroth clones and Bahamut in the space of roughly 30 minutes or so wounded and tired he still matches Sephiroth blow for blow until the end where he hits his limit. Then cloud once AGAIN defeates Sephiroth with one attack.

As for the cut the buliding and cloud control give me 5 det charges an old buliding a plane full of rain seed cyrstals and I could do the same thing VERY easily with a min of an hour set up time.

Sephiroth might be cool but that does NOT make him the best Villain.

The Anti-Existence
02-04-2007, 12:14 PM
Perhaps if Zidane had struck the killing blow earlier, Kuja woul;d never have destroyed Terra.

You obviously missed the whole part where it was the actual fight and the blows Zidane was hitting him with that ultimately allowed Kuja to access the planet-destroying power....


Sephiroth could've done it too.

No, he couldn't have. That's why he didn't. No proof he EVER had the power to destroy any planet.


However! Kuja was not. If girlface Zidane had slain him before he had a chance to destroy Terra, he would have lost the only good point about his Bad Guy status besides starting a war... but lets face it, any politician can pull that off.

Except Kuja also made the Black Mages and gave Brahne the various clues so she could gather together the stones for summoning Alexander. And Bahamut. So, I find it unlikely politicians can do that.


Sephiroth wiped out a village

X-Death ate cities with the Void.
Kefka vaporized population centers.

Sephiroth loses.


All of this was done by clones of Sephiroth... not even his full strentgh. Spiritual fusions with Jenova to represent him.

It was Jenova who killed everyone in Shinra HQ. Killing a bunch of scientists seems within its power.

And you forgot, fat Palmer survived. I'm pretty sure there were others.


As for manipulation, he warped Cloud into beleiving he was a clone, a failed experiment and had him retreive the Black Materia for him. He almost made him kill Aeris/Aerith.

Mind control is not manipulation. Sephiroth used the Jenova cells in Cloud's body to tinker with his mind. Manipulation actually requires intelligence. Kuja had the intelligence to manipulate events to come as he desired them.

And...really. Mindraping Cloud? Isn't that kinda like killing a dead horse?


Later in a sword fight he would go on to obliterate the entire front of the skycraper building previously owned by the Shinra company. Before that he had the power to control the weather, casting the region, maybe even the world into shadow for their battle.

Kuja destroyed a world >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building.
Kefka reshaping the world >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building.
Neo Exdeath >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sephiroth at any point.

The dude WAS The Void... Sephiroth be nothing.

FF Villains stronger than Sephiroth:
Kuja
Kefka
Ultamecia
Yu Yevon
Neo Exdeath
Zeromus
Cloud of Darkness

So, congrats Seph. You're stronger than...Shuyin.

Kakarot
02-05-2007, 02:32 AM
It's really not important whether or not Sephiroth could have destroyed the world. He didn't. Kuja did. Kefka did the equivalent. Sephiroth waited for you to come and kill him. Kuja and Kefka didn't worry about the protagonists in the story. They devoted all of their time and energy into furthering the plot line.

NEVER EVER compare Kefka to Kuja. Kefka didn't worry about the protagonists because he got his ass kicked by Sabin about one tenth into the game, while Cloud and co. had to train for three disks to beat Sephiroth. Also, if Sephiroth could have destroyed the world, that must be counted to ensure a fair debate.


He can return from the brink of death because Square needed him for a sequel.

And he will keep coming back, as long as making more money is a possibility.


No, he couldn't have. That's why he didn't. No proof he EVER had the power to destroy any planet.

Yes, because Sephiroth actually didn't summon Meteor. It was his evil twin...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Sephiroth is more powerful as Kuja, but Meteor could and would have wasted the Planet, if not for Holy. It couldn't have done many things that Kuja did, however.



FF Villains stronger than Sephiroth:
Kuja
Kefka
Ultamecia
Yu Yevon
Neo Exdeath
Zeromus
Cloud of Darkness

So, congrats Seph. You're stronger than...Shuyin.

Add Chaos (FFI), and take Kefka and Ultimecia, and I would agree with you.

The Anti-Existence
02-05-2007, 07:14 AM
Yes, because Sephiroth actually didn't summon Meteor. It was his evil twin...

It actually would have left a lot of the Planet intact and there would have been survivors. Stated in Maiden Who Travels the Planet that Seph would have killed any survivors of the collision once he soaked up all his power.

There's no reason to take Kefka or Ultamecia off the list, if that's what you meant here.

and take Kefka and Ultimecia, and I would agree with you.

They're both far stronger than Seph.

Revaninja
02-05-2007, 09:30 AM
While yes Sephiroth did summon Meteor he didn't do it with his own power in fact he couldn't do it. Meteor is stated in game as being a Materia so its the planets power or something equivlent and it requires massive amounts of Lifestream to activate let alone use. Sephiroth was in that Lifestream cyrstal and webbing for that very reason. Also Kuja DID destroy a planet Sephiroth attempted to do it and got stopped on the skin of his teeth. He came close but in actual deed he fails.

Kefka did destroy the world and did better he REMADE it. The power to destroy is easy the power to create is the true test. Kefka did it abit screwed up severally but he did it. As for Sabin he was running away because he really didn't want to deal with the fly that was Sabin. Toy with him a little and run that was it. Also later about 11 % into the game Kefka took on the whole party and nearly wins if you are not careful or overleveled. And the time frame was only a week or so later game wise.

Ultimecia took control of TIME. I work in the field of Temporal Mechanics the study of time for those who don't know. Ultimecia created a paradox that is what really happened. We have no idea what happens if a Paradox is created some say time ends others the Paradox is expelled no one is quite too sure about it. She created a Paradox and it had the effect of bunching time together to correct itself and expelle Ultimecia. To figure it out let alone pull it off is praise worthy to have the willpower it takes to hold on while dying and time its self is trying to erase you impressive.She earns her place in my list which closely matches Anti because of how close she came to destroying exsitence itself.

So yeah she was powerful for the greatest power is not to kill your oppent but rather make it so that they never even exisited.

ThroneofOminous
02-06-2007, 01:13 AM
While yes Sephiroth did summon Meteor he didn't do it with his own power in fact he couldn't do it. Meteor is stated in game as being a Materia so its the planets power or something equivlent and it requires massive amounts of Lifestream to activate let alone use.Just for the record, hardly any of the most powerful FF villains use their own power. Sephiroth used the Black Materia, Exdeath used the power of the Void, Kefka used the power of the Goddess Statues, Kuja used the souls in the Invincible to trance etc.

Revaninja
02-06-2007, 06:51 AM
True. I also have to bring up a misconnception about Sephiroth that is being said here. Sephiroth was not being cliched villian ignore the hero at all no he was being an egotistical bastard with a wounded pride.

First Sephiroth is a man who climbed up and out of the labs through blood sweat and guts to the very top. As befits a man who did say thing he is PROUD of his job and reputation which was hard earned. Now Zack while untested WAS a First Class SOLDIER this he had pontenial so if he had Defeated Sephiroth, Sephiroth's pride wouldn't have been hurt as bad as it was. But a Young No-Name Grunt more child then Man Some How Picks up a Sword that Should be too heavy for his frame, And BADLY hurts Sephiroth. Then in a direct confrotation Matches and beats Sephiroth's strength while RUN THROUGH with a sword. Sephiroth's reacation is one of complete and utter shock both in Last order and FFVII. A No-Name grunt shouldn't be able to beat a Legend like Sephiroth like that sure the suprise attack hurt him but he can rationalize it away he can't on the second attempt. Cloud beat him.

As I have said Sephiroth is prideful so when he made his plans to Destroy the world he did it with the knowledge that he would completly destroy Cloud and use him as a tool. Hojo gave him that acess with whatever was done to Cloud over those years. He then used that to guide Cloud to where he wanted to go he was the voice with the Robo scorpion and a few other times usual when he heard the buzz noise and cloud acted like he was in pain. Sephiroth was using Cloud not as an extra but as a tool to further his plans.

Only 3 things stood in his way of doing what he wanted with Cloud. His pysche which was trying to restore itself, Tifa and her true knowledge of the events being said before its time, and Aeris who helped Cloud break his control over him. The fact Aeris was calling Holy was a bonous to him since Cloud attachments to her and the toll of her deathon his mind helped keep Cloud controlable. Tifa he had to do nothing she wanted Cloud back and was willing to take this simlucron of him any day. As for the Pysche he just made sure to scramble the messages or force unique aspects of his personality to rise up and keep control like the Honey Bee shade we see alittle nudge and Cloud's shattered Mind did the rest.

After Cloud hands over the Black Materia and is swallowed up by the Lifestream He doesn't taunt or goad Cloud makes no effort to track him down. Why because he did what he wanted to do show how helpless Cloud really is and After that he didn't need him any longer and left him alone sure of his victory and superiorty aganist Cloud. Thats why the Last Battle aganist Sephiroth it was an attempt to Fix everything and Salvalge his pride One last time.

Also Cloud is not a Moron. Case in point his mind was so shattered that for most of us we would be a Vegtable. Instead Cloud was able to Feed himself take care of himself and Make independeant thoughts and Actions. Considering how messed up his mind was that is impressive in the extreme so if he does a stupid thing or 2 whose to say if that is normal him or just the screwed up Mind doing it. In fact after the Life Stream and in AC he shows to be an inner thinker constantly analzing his actions and deeds that is why he Agnst so badly over Aerith's Death because he felt he could have done more and didn't so he felt it was his fault and when he caught Geo it was like a sign from the planet to him saying yes you are gulity now die. He isn't stupid just a mess for most of the game and a little too self-scruntinizing to be health is all.

The Anti-Existence
02-06-2007, 05:30 PM
Cloud was a gargling, helpless mess. Zack had to do everything. It was not until his Jenova cells kicked in and fixed his mind. I dare say I could heal myself to a degree as Cloud did if I had Jenova cells in me because they're kinda uber-powerful. Cloud could do nothing on his own.

And the reason people jibe Seph about the Black Materia is because ANYONE can summon it with a boost from the Planet. But not anybody could absorb the power of the Goddess Statues. Not anyone could absorb souls from the Invincible.

Ceidwad
02-06-2007, 05:44 PM
Sephiroth can return from the brink of death because Square needed him for a sequel.

LOL.:laugh:

Going to have to use that in my sig.

By the way, sorry if I'm spoiling a decent debate here by interrupting. It's just that the timing of that comment was just spot on.

ThroneofOminous
02-06-2007, 07:26 PM
And the reason people jibe Seph about the Black Materia is because ANYONE can summon it with a boost from the Planet. But not anybody could absorb the power of the Goddess Statues. Not anyone could absorb souls from the Invincible.
There is nothing in either game to indicated that they were the only ones who could use the Invincible/Goddess Statues. Only with the Void are we given a clear indication that it takes some actual effort to control.

Xeta
02-06-2007, 08:01 PM
Ex-Death was actually friggin powerful BEFORE he got power from the Void...then he became mega-godlike powerful with the Void's help.

Kefka was pretty powerful for a human, but not insanely inhumanly powerful like Ex-Death was, just more powerful than the average human. Though later, he did absorb the power of the Statues to become, well, a god. I think Kefka is extremely powerful at that point, even when the statues are destroyed.

The Anti-Existence
02-06-2007, 08:55 PM
There is nothing in either game to indicated that they were the only ones who could use the Invincible/Goddess Statues. Only with the Void are we given a clear indication that it takes some actual effort to control.

Except there is no one else in the world like Kefka or Kuja. Kuja was an Angel of Death Genome-type with no similarity to the later versions in Zidane and Mikoto. And Kefka was augmented by the Magitek experiment.

So, unless you can prove that beings very unlike the ones that pulled off these feats can do it, I'll have to disagree.

ThroneofOminous
02-06-2007, 09:14 PM
There is nothing in the game to indicate that Kefka or Kuja's unique abilities were the reason why they were able to absorb said sources of power. Or at least, no more proof then there is that more characters than Sephiroth can wield the Black Materia.

Revaninja
02-06-2007, 09:41 PM
Cloud was at first a gurgling mess yes considering he was run through and cut up by sephiroth in a very short amount of time then when a coma or blackout from that he was experimented on for 5 years straight yeah he had the right to be. Zack already had Jenova Cells from the start so he handle it better then Cloud. As for the Jenova cells healing cloud they had nothing to do with it. Being a survior of better living through meds myself I can tell you High grade meds mess with your mind big time the fact Hojo had no morals only made it worse. Clouds mind was shattered when Zack was killed it provide the right stimula to get through to him and bring him back to working mentality. If Jenova was going to heal him it would have done it some time after the intial escape not the couple of days later like what actually happened. Cloud recovery was from the stories Zack told him, his own dreams, and his will not to give up they all combined to give him some lucidity but it was shaky at best only exposure to other humans and their behavior helped him become truly operational. Jenova heals and enhances the body, it was cloud pysche that was screwed up nothing pyshical at all so this Jenova was worth squat to his recovery.

There is only one thing that makes Kuja and Kefka stand above any other human or thing. Their will. Kefka was mad that is true but he had willpower in spades same goes for kuja. To contain the amount of power like the types they gained control of must take incredible amounts of will to not blow something up with a blink of an eye. Kefka was a god and Kuja the angel of death they had power in spades and had to have the will to back it up.

Xeta
02-06-2007, 10:48 PM
Actually, now that I thought about this, I realized, does it really matter where a villain gets his/her power from? Seriously, if a dude suddenly gets some sort of power from some magical statues and calls himself god, then proceeds to blow up some village and kill lots of people, I'm not going to say, "Oh, that Kefka isn't powerful or anything! He's just using the statues!" Well, I mean, besides the fact that he'd destroy my town if I said that. If a villain has lots of power, he's powerful, no matter how he gets that power.

Agent0042
02-06-2007, 11:12 PM
LOL, seriously. Do we care that Doc Ock got his power? I suppose in some cases it might be interesting that that certain villains have to study for and develop their powers, like say, Lord Voldemort from Harry Potter.

Revaninja
02-07-2007, 12:08 AM
Ya' know that is the 3rd time in the past 2 days someone brings in Harry potter on a completely unreleated subject and or theme.

But I do see your point fine it doesn't matter where they got their power from lets just look at their ultimate goals and how well they completed them.

FFIV-Zermours -sp?- tried to end all life on the Blue planet failed didn't even come close.
FFV- Exdeath I have no idea I don't rememeber so I have to skip
FFVI-Kefka become a god completed was stopped after the fact
FFVII-Sephiroth tried to become a god failed but came close
FFVIII-Ultimecia create a paradox why no clue but she did it and was stopped after the fact.
FFIX-Kuja kill all life came VERY close but was stopped at the end.
FFX- Sin keep Zanarkand dream alive kept it up for a 1000 years then was stopped
FFXI-I have no clue
FFXII-Vayne to free man from the age of stones complete but took it to far and lost there.

And that is it in an overly simplified way.

Kakarot
02-07-2007, 12:56 AM
Revaninja: Mark all spoilers, especially about FFXII, idiot. Some people have not gotten a chance to play it yet. Luckily your English is so poor I couldn't tell what the hell you're on about.

Sephiroth is unique, like Kefka and Kuja. He was the only person to have Jenova cells injected into him before he was born. This gives him power that nobody else has. However, like Kefka and Kuja, there is no proof that his uniqueness gave him the power to do what he did.

The Anti-Existence
02-07-2007, 02:57 AM
Sephiroth is unique, like Kefka and Kuja. He was the only person to have Jenova cells injected into him before he was born. This gives him power that nobody else has. However, like Kefka and Kuja, there is no proof that his uniqueness gave him the power to do what he did.

Yep. And, like Aeris said, anyone could use the Black Materia with a power-boost from the Planet. So, it was his uniqueness that allowed him to survive using it but anyone could use it.

Revaninja
02-07-2007, 10:19 AM
Vayne to free man from age of stones is said in a trailer I saw and My english is not poor I just don't bother for the most part having 100% perefect spelling and grammer. As for the FFXII spoiler its not anyone who has played FFXII will go OHHH while all the rest very oblivously are going huh? I did it on puropuse. Same goes for nearly all the rest you have to play the game to figure out what I mean.

Desert Wolf
02-07-2007, 12:56 PM
I think X-Death did a lot more than most of the others.

Hex Omega
02-07-2007, 01:17 PM
ZOMG, U NOOBS SEPHI IS CLEARY THE STRONGEST LOOK AT THE SIZE OF HIS SWORD, LOLOXLOLZOLOLZO`1111!111!!!!

Revaninja
02-07-2007, 01:33 PM
...I...I have no words to contain my utter horror at Internet short speak.

As for sephy he is so Compensating its not even funny.

Desert Wolf
02-07-2007, 01:48 PM
ZOMG, U NOOBS SEPHI IS CLEARY THE STRONGEST LOOK AT THE SIZE OF HIS SWORD, LOLOXLOLZOLOLZO`1111!111!!!!

STFU NOOB!! We should all pull ourselves with a picture of Kefka!!!11!

Vaati
02-07-2007, 01:49 PM
I think X-Death did a lot more than most of the others.

He did suck up quite a lot of towns with the void. He also commanded those fiendish monsters in the Void. Plus he can use Meteor, Holy and Flare all in one turn :)

Desert Wolf
02-07-2007, 01:51 PM
He did suck up quite a lot of towns with the void. He also commanded those fiendish monsters in the Void. Plus he can use Meteor, Holy and Flare all in one turn :)

He also controlled random people to help him come back which isnt the easiest thing to do when you're sealed up in a cave. Trust me, I know.

DarkLadyNyara
02-11-2007, 09:25 PM
ZOMG, U NOOBS SEPHI IS CLEARY THE STRONGEST LOOK AT THE SIZE OF HIS SWORD, LOLOXLOLZOLOLZO`1111!111!!!!

Please, for the love of God, tell me that was sarcasm. >_<

Agent0042
02-11-2007, 09:29 PM
LOL. I'm 99.9% certain that was sarcasm / a joke.

Judge Bergan
02-15-2007, 04:55 AM
ZOMG, U NOOBS SEPHI IS CLEARY THE STRONGEST LOOK AT THE SIZE OF HIS SWORD, LOLOXLOLZOLOLZO`1111!111!!!!

YES, SEPPEROTIH HAS LIKE THE BEST SWORD EVER AND HE IS SO PWETTY :3

Alvinz
02-15-2007, 05:06 AM
SEPHHHIRROTTH SuXXORZ!!!! ONEE WINGGED ANGEL SOUNDS ShiITTTY On PIANO!!! GO KEFFFFKAAAAAAAA AND HISsss kwaAZZZZZZYYYYYYYYY THEME SONG!!!

TidesOfWar
02-17-2007, 10:36 PM
SEPHHHIRROTTH SuXXORZ!!!! ONEE WINGGED ANGEL SOUNDS ShiITTTY On PIANO!!! GO KEFFFFKAAAAAAAA AND HISsss kwaAZZZZZZYYYYYYYYY THEME SONG!!!

ok so this was supposedly talking about the most powerful FF villain and you guys come in talking about how his theme sucked on the piano. What does that have to do with being the most powerful?

Yu-Yevon's the most powerful in my opinion (I know im going against everyone siding with Kefka and Kuja)

Agent0042
02-17-2007, 10:57 PM
Once again, Yu Yevon cannot truly be considered a villain, at least not at the form he appears in at Final Fantasy X because he has no control over his actions.

TidesOfWar
02-17-2007, 11:17 PM
But if Yu-Yevon came up with the spiral of death in Spira when he still had control of his actions, wouldn't that make him a villian for being responsible for his actions. He would also have to be extremely powerful to be able to keep this cycle continuing for over 1,000 years and being able to merge with the Final Aeon used against him to create a new Sin to be used to continue the cycle of death, false hope, and sorrow in Spira.

Agent0042
02-17-2007, 11:32 PM
No, I think Yu Yevon never intended for it to continue for a thousand years. I think he was doing the only thing that he thought could save Spira, never imagining what would happen. Does that make him villainous? I dunno, depends on what you think.


But as for your second point, I repost the same bit of dialogue I posted earlier in this thread ---


Fayth: Yes... If you defeat Yu Yevon, it will end. Tell me, what do you know about Yu Yevon?
Tidus: He's what makes Sin come back!
Yuna: Sin is his armor. It protects him.
Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil. He is awake, yet he dreams. But... maybe not forever.
Tidus: Yeah, that's right. Because we're ending it.

TidesOfWar
02-17-2007, 11:39 PM
So what im getting out of what your saying is that he believed that the only way to save Spira from it's sorrow and pain, most likely from the war between Bevelle and Zanarkand, would be to destroy it, much like Seymour's beliefs that destroying Spira would end all pain and that death is the ultimate liberation from suffering and sorrow.

Agent0042
02-18-2007, 01:20 PM
I'm not sure, but if you're saying that he was like Seymour, then yeah, I can see that. In which case, yeah, rather evil. Except, if I recall things correctly, Seymour wanted to take things one step further --- he thought he could take control of Sin and basically do whatever he wanted instead of essentially becoming a mindless automaton.

TidesOfWar
02-18-2007, 02:44 PM
ok so then Seymour would be the true villain, not Yu-Yevon.

Hellmenace3
02-20-2007, 02:05 AM
in my opinion FFX doesn't have a villain just a bunch of people trying to beat each other up with the player attacking each of them

TurboMog
03-07-2007, 06:29 PM
Well, if you think about it, you can't define evil without a good frame of reference. Good and evil are both subjective terms. What necessarily defines the concepts of good and evil in the first place? It depends on the culture, the values of the people that are using the terms, and so on and so forth. While the idea of Yu-Yevon and Sin making the spiral of death and rebirth may seem inherently evil to some, but what about it makes it evil?

Just because people die doesn't make the act of dying evil. You might argue that murder and killing is evil, but dying is not. Why? Because dying naturally is not an evil thing, right? Killing one's own goes against the natural order, and is thusly evil. Is it possible to see Yu-Yevon and Sin through this frame of reference, as something natural? What if, since Tidus and co are trying to break this cycle and disrupt nature, THEY are the ones perpetrating the evil act? Or are good acts and evil acts wholly dependent on whether or not they benefit mankind? I think this is what the Fayth is trying to say that Yu-Yevon is neither good nor evil.


Truth be told, I would say that Yu-Yevon and Sin are the LEAST evil of all the FF villians, because they are so far removed from the human frame of reference that they can almost be seen as a thing of nature.


Who's the most powerful? I'd have to say that Kefka is up there with Sin and Yu-yevon. I think Kefka, with the power of the goddesses, could have done almost the same thing Yu-Yevon did with Spira. Kefka isn't the type of person to do that sort of thing, he'd rather just flaunt his power and lord it over everyone till end of time. ;p As for the rest, aside from Sephiroth who pretty much just had a huge rocket launcher aimed at the earth, all FF final bosses are around the same power level, or else they wouldn't be FF bosses, right?

terra child
03-08-2007, 06:57 PM
oh god, we've done this debate before and all villains were shot down quickly and efficiently aside from Kuja and Kefka. Those who supported one over the other participated in about an 8 page debate over who was more "evil" and it was clear after 8 pages that nobody was going to win.
Queen Brahne wasn't even the main villain as she was manipulated and nothing that she did was truly her intentions.
Sephiroph's motives we're more for personal gain and not so much for others pain, not to mention he failed miserably at everything he set out to do. Killing Aerith was definitely NOT the most evil thing to happen in final fantasy. Sorry.
Sin was a trend. An "evil" that was more inherited than anything else, and arguably as shallow as one can imagine such an evil to be.
I never played FF8 but i remember it was one of the first villains to be rejected in the old thread.
FF1 hardly had a plot, so its tough to even include any villains from the game, because any arguments would have little support.
Kefka was a great villain simply because of the pleasure he got from performing evil deeds, and what he managed to do, he did with great efficiency. He rarely had a motive other than to get his jollies from other people's screams.
Kuja was also a great villain, because he manipulated others into doing his evil plans for him, not only getting the standard evil outcome that other villains set out to do, but passing the guilt onto those who actually performed the acts, therefore leaving a good population of the survivors in misery for doing the enemy's dirty work.

aznbkmami
03-15-2007, 07:04 PM
Yes, it seems that kuja is the most powerfull one for the reasons Diablo pointed.

As far as i love Kefka, he is not powerfull at all. If i remember he had to use soldiers to kill the Espers so he could take the magic stones. In his own he is a siple nothing in power ;)

maybe so.. but he did gain massive power after getting the espers power. ALL POWERFUL. kuja too, but i appreciate kefka way more.