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miginus
11-26-2006, 07:58 PM
If you want to dig up W-Item Materia from Bone Village this is how it is done. Go to Bone Village and talk to Excavator. Ask to dig up Good Treasure. Go under the little ladder on bottom level. If you look good enough you will see a faint cross or X. Stick a couple diggers there and then after the dig is done go to the box and you will recieve Cid's Mop Weapon. Dig there Again and check the box once more and you recieve a W-Item Materia if you missed the first one from Midgar. Now I don't know if you can get a 2nd W-Item Materia if you go back to Midgar after you dig up the one from Bone Village. I am going to try!! You can also dig up the Sector 5 Key from Bone Village.

Graffiti
11-26-2006, 08:14 PM
ok

Psycho_Cyan
11-26-2006, 08:18 PM
ZOMG STKY PLZ!1!

miginus
11-26-2006, 08:23 PM
WHAT???

Joey
11-26-2006, 09:08 PM
omfg dewd thx 4 teh hlep.

miginus
11-26-2006, 09:20 PM
NO PROBLEM!!

z.zetsumei
11-26-2006, 09:44 PM
omg...why not just make guides for gamefaqs or something?

miginus
11-26-2006, 10:15 PM
I was just helping out a friend with the game!

z.zetsumei
11-26-2006, 10:38 PM
pm your friend instead of posting a thread others will find useless

miginus
11-26-2006, 11:04 PM
Why don't you go some where else. You don't need to come post to this thread. NO ONE asked you your opinion ANYWAY!! What do you know about FF7 anyway!! You come in here making comments. KEEP THEM TO YOURSELF!!

Psycho_Cyan
11-27-2006, 01:09 AM
I'm roffling here, I have to admit. I love it when a pretentious newbie tells someone who's actually been here to go away, as if they have some God-given right to...to who knows what.

Jason_Uk
11-27-2006, 06:28 AM
I was just helping out a friend with the game!

Dude just ignor half the people on this forum, there all gay and up tight and full of unwanted sarcasim. THey must have shitty lives, if they need to come on the forum and be hostile and vent there ager to people over the net

Valerie Valens
11-27-2006, 08:23 AM
Dude just ignor half the people on this forum, there all gay and up tight and full of unwanted sarcasim. THey must have shitty lives, if they need to come on the forum and be hostile and vent there ager to people over the net

You're a pretentious cunt, fuck off.

Minigus, that is the guidelines of the forums. If you want to send something to your friend and him only, use the damn PM function. It's not there for decoration.

Don't be a nigger and act stupid when people point things out to you.

Memento Mori
11-27-2006, 09:10 AM
LOL, "When Newbies Flip Out, But Have No Clue What They Are Flipping Out About, Part 47".

Jason_Uk
11-27-2006, 11:26 AM
You're a pretentious cunt, fuck off.

Minigus, that is the guidelines of the forums. If you want to send something to your friend and him only, use the damn PM function. It's not there for decoration.

Don't be a nigger and act stupid when people point things out to you.

Ahaha im white.

z.zetsumei
11-27-2006, 11:26 AM
LOL, "When Newbies that Can't Spell Flip Out, But Have No Clue What They Are Flipping Out About, Part 47".

edited for specificity



Dude just ignor half the people on this forum, there all gay and up tight and full of unwanted sarcasim. THey must have shitty lives, if they need to come on the forum and be hostile and vent there ager to people over the net
quoted so you can't edit and call me wrong

Mr Jack
11-30-2006, 03:00 AM
wow - freedom of speech has gone waaay down hill since i last read up on it...lol

Prak
11-30-2006, 07:36 AM
There is no freedom of speech on the internet.

Mr Jack
11-30-2006, 08:22 AM
who said that you can say that!!!

(btw...that was a joke - a pretty lame one, but a joke nonetheless)

NorseFTX
11-30-2006, 12:45 PM
There is no freedom of speech on the internet.

XD
<<
There is always freedom of speech, wherever you go, no matter where you are!
No matter what another says...no one can make you say things; no one can stop you from saying things...
But you always should prepare yourself for the consequences of what you say.

Prak
11-30-2006, 12:50 PM
Actually, you are in an environment where your posts can be edited/deleted and you can be banned from making further posts. You have no freedom in this environment. You continue to exist here only by the will of the administration.

NorseFTX
11-30-2006, 01:00 PM
You do have freedom.
>>
You can still post whatever you want.
What happens to your words is outside of the action of "saying what you say"...they're the consequences and series of events that happen after what you say.
But the first action of speech...
You always have the freedom to do that.

What you don't have freedom with is the consequences of your speech.

Prak
11-30-2006, 01:06 PM
Not if you're banned from the site. Also, there have been users in the past who have been restricted from posting new threads. Is that not a constraint on their so-called freedom of speech? How about Odin getting banned when he posts outside his own forum? I'd call that a limit on freedom of speech. And then there's the fact that new members can't send PMs. They lack a privilege granted to others, so their speech is restricted.

Then consider the fact that you can't even post on this site without registering. Because you must be registered, that means there is a price (however small) that must be paid before you can speak. That isn't freedom.

Anyway, there are no rights at all on the internet because it is international. It does not fall under a specific nation's laws, so freedom of speech is not a protected right granted to anyone.

NorseFTX
11-30-2006, 01:12 PM
Not if you're banned from the site. Also, there have been users in the past who have been restricted from posting new threads. Is that not a constraint on their so-called freedom of speech? How about Odin getting banned when he posts outside his own forum? I'd call that a limit on freedom of speech. And then there's the fact that new members can't send PMs. They lack a privilege granted to others, so their speech is restricted.

Those are the consequences that occur after people utilize their "freedom of speech".
There are times...when freedom of speech treads into other types of freedom. And that's when people take away that right to "speech"...
But people've always had the right in the first place, as long as they have the ability to type, and to navigate the internet....
They still have the freedom to enter other forums and speak as they will, or start their own and do so; no one, in truth, can ever be completely silenced on the internet.

But...even though you can speak whatever you want, you won't always be listened to.
Being banned or those things at least show your speech has been seen and has affected someone. Those who are ignored have it even worse....

Jarosik
11-30-2006, 01:17 PM
You're not going to win.

Prak
11-30-2006, 01:17 PM
I listed two circumstances on this very forum where restrictions occur before posting anything. I will not even reply to the rest of that post until those have been addressed or the point is conceded.

NorseFTX
11-30-2006, 01:19 PM
There are no restrictions on registration.
If there were an age restriction, people may just lie about their age to get in....

Sorry about that...>> I kind of missed that ><


Anyway, there are no rights at all on the internet because it is international. It does not fall under a specific nation's laws, so freedom of speech is not a protected right granted to anyone.
About that--
I've always thought that the law's definition of 'freedom of speech' only applies to consequences following free speech. Laws only say if they will punish people who try to punish others whose speech they didn't like. (Like you said, "protection of free speech"...."protection of those who speak freely". All can speak freely. Not all will be protected by law. And none will be protected on the internet.)

Prak
11-30-2006, 01:22 PM
I am saying that registration itself is a restriction. It is the price that must be paid before being allowed to post. A freedom is inherent and does not require a price to be paid. Privileges, however, can require a price to be paid and can be taken away.

NorseFTX
11-30-2006, 01:26 PM
The general internet has places where you can be heard without any price....
But...by definition of "inherent freedom", freedom doesn't have a price....
Does anything not require a price?

Everything requires a sacrifice, of some kind. Even if the sacrifice is simply time....

ninjathief
11-30-2006, 01:30 PM
wow who would have known that the w-item materia was so controversial? i mean come on

for real...

NorseFTX
11-30-2006, 01:32 PM
XD ya!
W-Item should be like....the subject of the next political debate.

<_____<
I have gone so off topic.
XP Sorry for dragging you there, Prak...
But this is interesting!
If you want to continue, and are willing to, I don't mind. =]

Prak
11-30-2006, 01:44 PM
The general internet has places where you can be heard without any price....

Unless you can somehow apply that to the entire internet, it does nothing to strengthen your position.


But...by definition of "inherent freedom", freedom doesn't have a price....
Does anything not require a price?

Everything requires a sacrifice, of some kind. Even if the sacrifice is simply time....

The difference is between something that is merely sacrificed and a price that is paid to another party or entity. Time is something that is invested by you and not reaped in any form by others. However, when others must receive something from you before you are allowed to use whatever service they provide, then you are paying the cost for a privilege. Also, since that privilege can be revoked without warning or reason, it cannot be claimed as a freedom.

Frankly, you're doing nothing but holding up little wooden shields against a flamethrower. I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing and this is going nowhere at all, so I'm going to call it quits, content with a total victory in this matter. I'll leave it to the gallery to make their own judgements on it.

Mario Kinnikuman
11-30-2006, 01:49 PM
I was just helping out a friend with the game!


pm your friend instead of posting a thread others will find useless

Inutile as his thread preceding this.

miginus, <a href="[Only registered and activated users can see links]">Here's your word of the day!</a>

Honestly, it's unnecessary.

NorseFTX
11-30-2006, 03:32 PM
Unless you can somehow apply that to the entire internet, it does nothing to strengthen your position.
You said "There is no freedom on the internet". I'm showing how that's not always true...>>
It felt like you were generalizing that statement to the entire internet....
Let me know if that wasn't the case.



The difference is between something that is merely sacrificed and a price that is paid to another party or entity. Time is something that is invested by you and not reaped in any form by others. However, when others must receive something from you before you are allowed to use whatever service they provide, then you are paying the cost for a privilege. Also, since that privilege can be revoked without warning or reason, it cannot be claimed as a freedom.

Frankly, you're doing nothing but holding up little wooden shields against a flamethrower. I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing and this is going nowhere at all, so I'm going to call it quits, content with a total victory in this matter. I'll leave it to the gallery to make their own judgements on it.

How is registration a payment? The only thing someone needs to put in is a bit of time, an email address (which could be any email address they could have made at any site).
To me, registration is free, and we are free to talk here, too. (Unless we start displaying that we're abusing our freedom to speak...but we're free to speak until then.)

And I'm not arguing for argument's sake! This is what I really, truly do believe in. So though you may believe you're done, I'm not exactly done with you!! If you don't believe that you have freedom in this world, I want to show you that you do.

For example, if there was a guy that bullied me, and tried to take my money away, and actually threatened me with a knife....
If I gave him my money, I actually wasn't forced to. It was my choice--and if I gave him the money, I chose, myself, that I didn't want to go through pain, or die. I parted something that I didn't really want to part with (my money) because otherwise, I would part with something that is more important (my life).
There's the other choice--not to give the money, and to die. He would get the money anyway...
And finally, there's a third choice. I can choose to give the money...not because I'm afraid I'll die, but out of generosity. Or out of pity...and with this choice, he hasn't taken anything at all. I've given it to them.

The same is with freedom. No one can take away your freedom unless you give it to them yourself...
People may shut your mouth, stop you from speaking, or anything like that...
But no matter what they do, they can't touch your will, your thoughts, or your beliefs, unless you let them. And as long as you have that will, you still have your freedom. With determination, you can find ways into "freedom of speech" regardless of the circumstances.

Graffiti
11-30-2006, 04:00 PM
Honestly, it's unnecessary.

x2

NorseFTX
11-30-2006, 10:16 PM
<< I forgot a "fourth choice" in my example, which is to kick the ass of that guy trying to steal from me with my 1337 martial arts skills, but I was assuming that I wasn't gonna hurt that poor guy who has to go and pick on some girl for money.

Mr Jack
12-01-2006, 04:27 AM
oh what have i started....

.....

im not gettin involved in this one....

Omaklise
12-01-2006, 08:03 AM
Just as a side note (and a bit of a hint for those who don't know), if you are in a battle, use W-Item, choose your first item, then choose anyone, it doesn't matter, then choose your second item, but when it wants you to select another target, simply hit Cancel to go back to the Menu. You'll find the amount of Items in that particular slot goes up by 1. Battle a really weak enemy and keep doing this until you have 99x of all the Items you need.

Mr Jack
12-01-2006, 08:10 AM
THAT IS TOTALLY NEW INFORMATION!!!
















No Sarcasm Intended .....well maybe a bit

NorseFTX
12-01-2006, 11:35 AM
You should be able to duplicate items you only have one of, too--
W-Item duplication's mechanism is a glitch where the game normally gives you your item back if you decided not to use the item--and it does that by giving the first item back when you choose "cancel" for the second item....
So it doesn't matter what the second item you choose is--it always just duplicates the first item....

I've also heard from someone that if you don't have default controller settings, and you cancel with "Square", W-item duplication doesn't work....
XP I haven't tried this, but I thought it was interesting....

<<
>>
<<
......SO!....Are you...done, Prak...?
When I read this passage, I kind of realized that we might have miscommunicated...that we weren't arguing for the same reasons...

I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing and this is going nowhere at all, so I'm going to call it quits, content with a total victory in this matter.
I was a little surprised by that statement...
It's good for you...that you're victorious.
XP "Winning" wasn't what I was arguing for in the first place...so you can have that victory if you'd like it.

I'm just trying to figure out what is "right" or "true". I'm still not sure what the truth is. You told me there is no freedom of speech on the internet....
But because it's an open forum, with no laws (as some countries would punish those who speak against their government), and they are free to speak what they will on the internet.
When you say "there is no freedom of speech"...are you talking about the legal definition of "freedom of speech" (Protection of people who speak freely)? Or the literal definition of "freedom of speech" (Ability to speak freely)?

I agree that there is no protection for people who speak freely on the internet (the legal "freedom of speech").
But as for literal "freedom of speech"...I think it's always here for us.
Because even if you ban people or those things, people can still find ways to express themselves on the internet...and if someone tried to tell you to "shut up" or used their banning powers on you, you can still find ways to make yourself heard. You could start a forum yourself...all these things....
There are all sorts of weird things on youtube...and through a google search, you can find all sorts of perverted things...
There is freedom of expression on the internet. Speech is a form of expression...so you are free to speak whatever you will because there are no legal limitations on what you say.

Prak
12-01-2006, 11:42 AM
so you are free to speak whatever you will because there are no legal limitations on what you say.

And right there, you've found the very heart of the matter, although you've interpreted it the wrong way. Just like there are no legal limitations on what you can say, neither are there any protections. The internet itself has no universal rules, laws, regulations, or even a moral code. Therefore, the argument that some sites will let you speak freely doesn't matter in the slightest because not only do others not allow it, those that do can take that privilege away without warning or justification. That should, by any standard I can think of, entirely disprove the notion that there is any sort of freedom of speech on the internet.

NorseFTX
12-01-2006, 11:50 AM
Mm!
So there is no legal (protection of) "freedom of speech".
But...there is literal "freedom of speech".

Even if some sites can take away your privilege, there are countless resources on the internet. People can "take away" your freedom of speech, but you still have freedom to speak in other places, still on the internet.
<< Protection of freedom of speech is different than freedom of speech itself.

People here...and you--have the right to be as rude to me as you'd like....no, no, that's wrong....you don't "have the right to be"...you just "can be".
But in the same way, I can get angry, or lecture you as much as I'd like...>> The only thing that can really stop anybody here on the internet is self-restraint.
And people here also have the freedom to take away others' freedom, as there is no protection of individuals' freedom.

On the internet, it's complete, absolute freedom. Freedom both to express yourself as you will, and to trod upon others' freedom.
Whether you believe that is freedom...or whether that isn't freedom....
Is up to a philosophical question that's been debated for centuries...

We can debate that now, if you'd like. =] >> Though I have class soon....

Joey
12-02-2006, 01:23 AM
On the internet, it's complete, absolute freedom. Freedom both to express yourself as you will, and to trod upon others' freedom.
Whether you believe that is freedom...or whether that isn't freedom....
Is up to a philosophical question that's been debated for centuries...


I am not really trying to put myself up into this debate but I thought I would say this: I am not sure if you live in the U.S. or not, but in some (if not most) countries it is considered a federal offense to 'trod' upon other's freedoms.

Also, you cannot have absolute freedom on the internet. For instance, if you set up a child pornography site, it could be closed by the government and you could face charges.
I mean, any dumbass can get onto AIM or MySpace use their 'freedom of speech' onto any 16 year old girl, and can be tracked down/charged if abuse of the internet continues.

There is quite a difference between a verbal freedom of speech and using the ability to put words of hate into writing. Especially if it becomes too offensive or threats are being made.

Basically, there is no absolute freedom of the internet since it is controlled and actual verbal freedom is not.

Mr Jack
12-04-2006, 03:56 AM
Norse FTW

Graffiti
12-04-2006, 05:28 AM
nice Pun/s

Mr Jack
12-04-2006, 05:33 AM
its a gift...

NorseFTX
12-04-2006, 11:31 AM
Norse FTW

XD
No one's ever said that before....
Hee hee
Thanks. =]


I am not really trying to put myself up into this debate but I thought I would say this: I am not sure if you live in the U.S. or not, but in some (if not most) countries it is considered a federal offense to 'trod' upon other's freedoms.

Also, you cannot have absolute freedom on the internet. For instance, if you set up a child pornography site, it could be closed by the government and you could face charges.
I mean, any dumbass can get onto AIM or MySpace use their 'freedom of speech' onto any 16 year old girl, and can be tracked down/charged if abuse of the internet continues.

There is quite a difference between a verbal freedom of speech and using the ability to put words of hate into writing. Especially if it becomes too offensive or threats are being made.

Basically, there is no absolute freedom of the internet since it is controlled and actual verbal freedom is not.

Oh! Don't worry--feel free to add into the debate if you'd like...
You had very good points XD So it wouldn't be right of me to tell you not to add these things....

Mm, I live in the US...
When I said "Absolute Freedom", I didn't think to the part where people would actually be tracked down for saying or displaying what they do on the internet....
Though generally, people aren't caught for what they do...(>< and it's horrible that they aren't)...some actually are.
So you're saying that there is some degree of legal protection on the internet, right? (Only if the US finds the offense that the person is committing heavy enough to investigate)

So people are protecting the peoples' freedom to happiness over others' freedom of speech....
That's almost always why freedom of speech would be taken away--to protect the freedom to happiness for others (so that others aren't extremely offended, etc...)
So then that means..."freedom of happiness" is prioritized on the internet over "freedom of speech", right? So then....
Prak is right! There isn't really freedom of speech...
Though there is a sort of different kind of freedom over the internet, it's not really "freedom of speech" or "freedom of expression"....it just seems like those two things....

Maybe it's actually...the "freedom of anonyminity"....(or whatever the noun for "anonymous" is....>>)
Because there definitely is a sort of different freedom over the internet than in the real world...I've always just thought that it was just a crazy gigantic splat of everything anyone wanted to say (since it looks a lot like that sometimes...so it'd be the "chaotic, absolute freedom" sort of thing)....but that might not be entirely the case....

Do you think that internet "freedom" is freedom coming from being "anonymous"? Rather than freedom to express yourself...? It's a kind of thin line being drawn....
What do you guys think?

z.zetsumei
12-04-2006, 11:46 AM
you know Norse...you need to understand that posting things on the Internet is a privilege unless you pay for the webspace yourself. This is so because someone else is allowing you to use their webspace.

if you want complete freedom to say whatever you want, go pay for your own server and domain so you can have all of the "freedoms" that you want

NorseFTX
12-05-2006, 12:10 PM
Ah...mm, I've never really thought of speaking here as a privilege....
But it really is! I shouldn't take this place for granted...maybe that was my mistake....
Thank you, Webmaster! For allowing me to post here, and meet all these people....

....
About the second part of your post...I don't really want complete freedom...
Because I already am saying what I want....=]

If you guys aren't saying everything--please don't hold back! I'd like to hear everything you guys want to say. If it's only insults, though...>> Well, you can at least tell my why you want to insult me...
Whether you think I'm dumb, or that I'm annoying...or anything like that....
Tell me! So that I'll know what I'm doing wrong and I can fix it and apologize.

Mr Jack
12-06-2006, 03:20 AM
you shouldnt chnage who you are, just because somebody else wants you to, particularly somebody who youve never met in real life!! Good 4 U Norse

Kakarot
12-06-2006, 07:38 AM
I don't think you're dumb or annoying at all, Norse. In fact, just by reading this thread, I've learned everything I could ever want to know about W-Item... XP.

On the internet, there is a given amount of freedom, which mostly comes from the 'anonymousness' (:smrt:) you have on it, as well as the distance from other people.

For example, if I were to go up to someone much stronger than me, I have to be careful what I say because if he takes offence to it, he'll probably beat the shit out of me. But on the internet, I can taunt the same person as much as I like, and unless he knows where I live, there's not much he can do to me in return.

Not knowing most of the people here in the real world is also a big help when it comes to speaking my mind. While you may not have the guts to say something to someone you know well, here on the Internet, almost anything goes. If you don't like another person's comments, you can very easily decide to stop frequenting that site, but doing that in real life is a lot harder.
--------------------
BTW, I would also like to thank the Webmaster. It is a serious atrocity that he or she has gone unrecognized for so long...

NorseFTX
12-06-2006, 11:35 AM
XD Alright...

Mm...
The weird thing for me is like...in real life, I'm very straight and to the point with my feelings towards others....and sometimes, I'm even cruel, and I speak things out of anger that I wouldn't say if I had time to think....
But online, I do have time to think...
And while I'm typing something out of anger, I can realize what I'm doing and stop myself...and try to see things from the other side....

Mm, I'm glad when you guys say that I shouldn't change myself for others...
XD
But...you might call me childish, or something like that....but I want to believe that everyone is wonderful...that everyone is worth the time for me to change for them....
Even the people here...who wouldn't change for others for the life of them, it seems....I want to see their true colors! That they are wonderful people, too....

So I'm really here because I'm testing myself--what I believe in...

Fnlfntsyfn
12-06-2006, 02:44 PM
My view is that you have freedom of speech. It is simply a matter of whether the consequences of certain things being said are such that you really may want to reconsider your decision as to whether to say it or not.

If that confused you (it confused me a little, and I wrote it!), basically I'm saying that there is freedom of speech, but be careful what you say and who you say it to.

z.zetsumei
12-06-2006, 04:59 PM
My view is that you have freedom of speech. It is simply a matter of whether the consequences of certain things being said are such that you really may want to reconsider your decision as to whether to say it or not.

If that confused you (it confused me a little, and I wrote it!), basically I'm saying that there is freedom of speech, but be careful what you say and who you say it to.

congratulations, you just ignored a good portion of this thread

Gentleman Ghost
12-06-2006, 07:06 PM
its no use z.zet, flynyfnylysn looks like a spam bot.

Mr Jack
12-07-2006, 07:05 AM
XD Alright...

So I'm really here because I'm testing myself--what I believe in...

wow - thats so deep....

NorseFTX
12-07-2006, 12:40 PM
I'm just hoping I can uphold it here...>>

These guys are stubborn.


congratulations, you just ignored a good portion of this thread

XD
At least they read a portion of it...>> Or otherwise, they'd actually be talking about W-Item...XP

Gentleman Ghost
12-08-2006, 03:09 AM
This thread = turning/turned into a flame war.

Fnlfntsyfn
12-10-2006, 04:19 PM
I assume that Tryphloznix was referring to me, although as I have no idea what "flynyfnylysn" is, I might be wrong. The point is, I am NOT a spam bot.

All I did was state my opinion on the concept of free speech, which as far as I could tell from what I saw was a point being discussed in a thread which had originally set out to discuss W-Item. Was I wrong? Well if I was, that's still no excuse to tear my head off. So I'd appreciate it if you don't tear it off.

I have now read the whole thread, and all I can see is some discussion of W-Item, but mainly a debate/discussion on free speech, whether on the internet or not. And all I did was contribute my opinion. If you object to that, you are trying to deny me my freedom of speech. Which is, of course, the dominant theme in this thread. I've made my point, I have no more to say.

z.zetsumei
12-10-2006, 06:34 PM
I assume that Tryphloznix was referring to me, although as I have no idea what "flynyfnylysn" is, I might be wrong. The point is, I am NOT a spam bot.

All I did was state my opinion on the concept of free speech, which as far as I could tell from what I saw was a point being discussed in a thread which had originally set out to discuss W-Item. Was I wrong? Well if I was, that's still no excuse to tear my head off. So I'd appreciate it if you don't tear it off.

I have now read the whole thread, and all I can see is some discussion of W-Item, but mainly a debate/discussion on free speech, whether on the internet or not. And all I did was contribute my opinion. If you object to that, you are trying to deny me my freedom of speech. Which is, of course, the dominant theme in this thread. I've made my point, I have no more to say.


you also ignored the fact that it's been stated that there is no such thing as "freedom of speech" on boards that are paid for and maintained by others, and your use is merely a privilege and not a right

Neo Sephiroth
12-10-2006, 08:35 PM
Sorry to pop out of nowhere, but I only have one comment on the current discussion:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Get the point here?

Joey
12-10-2006, 08:36 PM
That post was as necessary as this one.

NorseFTX
12-11-2006, 01:09 AM
XD
I thought it was interesting that W-Item can lead to talking about "Freedom of Speech"....


you also ignored the fact that it's been stated that there is no such thing as "freedom of speech" on boards that are paid for and maintained by others, and your use is merely a privilege and not a right

>>
The board registration says that "Registration is completely free!"
<<
>>
<<
If you are thinking "Oh, god. Don't start this again"
...pretend I didn't say anything!....>>

Mr Jack
12-11-2006, 03:36 AM
XD
I thought it was interesting that W-Item can lead to talking about "Freedom of Speech"....


sorry - that would be my fault....i said to Prak - how much freedom of speech has gone downhill since i last read up on it...it was all downhill from there.....(EDIT) with zesumie fueling flames!!

z.zetsumei
12-11-2006, 12:32 PM
XD
I thought it was interesting that W-Item can lead to talking about "Freedom of Speech"....



>>
The board registration says that "Registration is completely free!"
<<
>>
<<
If you are thinking "Oh, god. Don't start this again"
...pretend I didn't say anything!....>>

here's something you should have read when you registered


The owners of Final Fantasy Shrine Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.
that screams limited and not free speech

Fnlfntsyfn
12-11-2006, 03:14 PM
What is your problem, z.zetsumei? Firstly, that particular point relates only to such things as forums, I was speaking mainly in general terms. Yes, I know that much of this thread has been discussion of freedom of speech on the internet, but that doesn't mean that I cannot express my view on the concept as applied to a wider area. And the owners of the forums do reserve those rights, it's true, and our ability to post on the forums is a privilege. There are controversial issues in discussion on the forums, including this very discussion. And it's still here, it hasn't been deleted has it? Not yet, anyway. So obviously they don't restrict things that much. Of course, with you posting on here, they might close it for the sake of everyone else. If you look carefully, you might notice that I haven't actually criticised anyone else in my posts. So maybe you should stop criticising me. And don't bother criticising me for this post either. I have said all that I am going to say, provocation will not entice me back into any argument. And that's all there is to it.

Mr Jack is right, all you are doing, z.zetsumei, is fuelling fires in the burning ruins of what started out as a civil discussion.

Prak
12-11-2006, 03:20 PM
Random letter person, you're being quite a cunt. He never made any kind of personal attack against you. If you feel so threatened by people pointing out your shortcomings, go live on a mountaintop and cut off all communication with the rest of the world.

Fnlfntsyfn
12-11-2006, 03:35 PM
I'm not getting involved with this again, except to make three quick points:

(1) Two of z.zetsumei's posts have directly followed and criticised mine. Furthermore, judging by other people's posts, I'm not the only one who doesn't like z.zetsumei's attitude.

(2) Calling me a cunt? Because that can't in any way be called a personal attack...

(3) Random letters? I am a fan of Final Fantasy. I'll rephrase that: Final Fantasy Fan. Now, those three words...what do you get if you remove all of the vowels and spaces? Fnlfntsyfn. Duh.

I have made my point, I will not back down, as I have simply expressed my own opinion. I retain the right to that, and also to defend myself. I will not be drawn into further argument, and therefore any further criticisms will be ignored. My lack of response to any future attacks will not be a matter of my not denying anything, but merely a mature decision to simply not get involved in such immature argument. That is all I have to say. And I mean it, there won't be another post in this thread from me, unless the thread becomes civil again.

To those who have not joined the side that continues to attack me, I thank you for either your support or neutrality, whichever applies. To those who have attacked me, I say only get a life!

Prak
12-11-2006, 03:42 PM
1. Criticism is not the same as a personal attack. Learn the difference before you cry wolf.

2. You bet it was a personal attack. I never said that I didn't/wouldn't make them, just that z.zetsumei didn't.

3. Guess what that looks like to most of us. Gibberish. I can't be bothered to decode your crap, so you shall remain Random Letter Person.

I honestly don't care if you back down or not. Anything small enough to be crushed under one foot is not an obstruction to me. Have a nice day and get a life of your own, Mr. I-have-so-little-self-confidence-that-I-can't-handle-random-people-on-the-internet-disagreeing-with-me.

FF1WithAllThieves
12-11-2006, 06:15 PM
Unless you can somehow apply that to the entire internet, it does nothing to strengthen your position.



The difference is between something that is merely sacrificed and a price that is paid to another party or entity. Time is something that is invested by you and not reaped in any form by others. However, when others must receive something from you before you are allowed to use whatever service they provide, then you are paying the cost for a privilege. Also, since that privilege can be revoked without warning or reason, it cannot be claimed as a freedom.

Frankly, you're doing nothing but holding up little wooden shields against a flamethrower. I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing and this is going nowhere at all, so I'm going to call it quits, content with a total victory in this matter. I'll leave it to the gallery to make their own judgements on it.

Prak is indeed the victor. I must say, Norse, that you lose quite badly. How is there freedom of speech when you can be prevented from speaking completely and your posts can be edited immediately?

z.zetsumei
12-11-2006, 07:48 PM
Prak is indeed the victor. I must say, Norse, that you lose quite badly. How is there freedom of speech when you can be prevented from speaking completely and your posts can be edited immediately?

x2

also, how is questioning the validity of what is said a personal attack?

and in case you haven't notice mr. final fantasy fan...i don't give a fuck what other people think...so just move on with your life and continue to be a waste of space

Mr Jack
12-12-2006, 04:53 AM
so just move on with your life and continue to be a waste of space

heh, seems like theres a lot of that around here...



NO NAMES!!!

TK
12-12-2006, 01:04 PM
Sorry to pop out of nowhere, but I only have one comment on the current discussion:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Get the point here?

<font size=10>THANKS FOR THE UPDATE DR. FUNNYPICTURE</font>

NorseFTX
12-12-2006, 06:31 PM
Prak is indeed the victor. I must say, Norse, that you lose quite badly. How is there freedom of speech when you can be prevented from speaking completely and your posts can be edited immediately?

Oh...
I never said that peoples' posts can't be edited. XP
<< I think I might be losing badly, too, because I'm not trying to win...><

But this is what I believe--!
People can say whatever they want--they do have freedom of speech.
But...the moderators also have the freedom to do whatever they want with what they say...
But that's after they've already made the "speech", after they've said what they've said, hurt the people they've hurt...all those things. Deleting the post and banning the person doesn't undo the damage they've already done.
...they could always re-register with a different E-Mail, or on a different computer....
And they can always continue saying things...if they get banned, they can start again.

There is freedom of speech, both good and bad...
There just isn't protection of those who speek freely.
...That's what I was arguing!

z.zetsumei
12-12-2006, 08:01 PM
Oh...
I never said that peoples' posts can't be edited. XP
<< I think I might be losing badly, too, because I'm not trying to win...><

But this is what I believe--!
People can say whatever they want--they do have freedom of speech.
But...the moderators also have the freedom to do whatever they want with what they say...
But that's after they've already made the "speech", after they've said what they've said, hurt the people they've hurt...all those things. Deleting the post and banning the person doesn't undo the damage they've already done.
...they could always re-register with a different E-Mail, or on a different computer....
And they can always continue saying things...if they get banned, they can start again.

There is freedom of speech, both good and bad...
There just isn't protection of those who speek freely.
...That's what I was arguing!


okay...you need to grab a dictionary once in a while, because you apparently don't have a clue as to what "freedom" is

in fact, here's an entry from one:

free·dom (frdm)
n.
1. The condition of being free of restraints.
2. Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression.
3.
a. Political independence.
b. Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly.
4. Exemption from an unpleasant or onerous condition: freedom from want.
5. The capacity to exercise choice; free will: We have the freedom to do as we please all afternoon.
6. Ease or facility of movement: loose sports clothing, giving the wearer freedom.
7. Frankness or boldness; lack of modesty or reserve: the new freedom in movies and novels.
8.
a. The right to unrestricted use; full access: was given the freedom of their research facilities.
b. The right of enjoying all of the privileges of membership or citizenship: the freedom of the city.
9. A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference: "the seductive freedoms and excesses of the picaresque form" John W. Aldridge.

note the bolded areas
we are NOT free from restraint
we do NOT have unrestricted use of these forums, nor do we have full access
we do NOT have the right to do whatever we want without fear of restraint or interference

NorseFTX
12-12-2006, 08:28 PM
Those are the "Political Definition"s of freedom!
I've said already--
There is no protection for the people who speak freely online...! So there is no "political freedom" online.

But there's no way you can convince me that one doesn't have the ability to speak what they wish on the internet. Whether or not people will restrain them afterwards is another matter...
People can speak whatever they would like....
In truth, there isn't a single thing anyone can do to silence someone on the internet. There are always outlets, or ways...to be heard on the internet....

I'm not trying to say that if I got banned or moderated, that I have the right to complain. That'd be silly of me! I wouldn't be taking responsibility for what I said.
But in the same way, it's silly to think that you can truly, permanently take away someone's ability to speak on the internet.

Kakarot
12-13-2006, 06:13 AM
Note, z.zetsumei, that there is a difference between freedom and freedom of speech. This is freedom of speech:


freedom of speech –noun
the right of people to express their opinions publicly without governmental interference, subject to the laws against libel, incitement to violence or rebellion, etc.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, (and I could be, I'm not familiar with the inner workings of this site) no Government has the power to interfere with anything said on this site, ergo freedom of speech is intact on the Internet.

Prak
12-13-2006, 07:55 AM
Incorrect. The internet does not fall under the jurisdiction of any single governmental entity, so sites basically govern themselves and establish their own rules, essentially making them virtual nations in their own right, each of which is able to establish its own rules and regulations. Therefore, even if certain sites allow you to speak completely freely, that is not the case across the entire internet, so it cannot be said that freedom of speech exists on the internet in general, merely on certain sites within it.

NorseFTX
12-13-2006, 09:10 AM
Oh!

Mm. So there is freedom of speech on the internet! =]

Just because you're banned from a bar, it doesn't mean you can't just go to the one on the other side of the street and do what you want there....
And on the internet, there are nearly an unlimited amount 'bars' you could go to...
And also, on the internet, it's a lot easier to make a fake ID, dress up funny, and go back into a bar that you were banned from before....
<<

Kakarot
12-13-2006, 09:17 AM
I was mostly correcting z.z on his definition, but I'll allow myself to be drawn into the argument. To call me incorrect is a bit unsuitable, when technically you haven't done anything to counter my point about freedom of speech existing on the internet, in fact you capitulated when you admitted that there could be sites that allow to you speak completely freely. And FTR, this discussion started with this statement:


There is no freedom of speech on the internet.

Once you've conceded that point, we can move on to the next topic.

EDIT: I'd also like to mention that Norse makes a very solid argument with that last post, i.e. it supports my contention.

Prak
12-13-2006, 09:37 AM
No, because your contention fails to make a differentiation between the internet and individual sites on the internet. They are, of course, completely different things. It's exactly like blindly saying that people on earth have freedom of speech when that clearly isn't the case in all places.

Psycho_Cyan
12-13-2006, 10:21 AM
And also, on the internet, it's a lot easier to make a fake ID, dress up funny, and go back into a bar that you were banned from before....

You obviously aren't very well-versed in any matters internet. It's pretty easy to track a person's IP. Were I to make a new usernick and start posting, I'd be found out within a week, if not sooner.

NorseFTX
12-13-2006, 11:30 AM
XD
I have access to a lot of different internet connections. So that wouldn't be a problem....>=]
...<<
Hm. But not everyone does....

To Prak--when you say in real life, people don't have freedom of speech....
They do!
All they don't have is the right to "freedom of speech"...they still have freedom of speech.
If you feel you don't have freedom of speech, that still doesn't mean you can't speak! That just means you're afraid of the consequences. But if you really did want to, you could say what you would like. And even if they silence you afterwards...you've already been heard.
When people and governments tell their citizens that they don't have freedom of speech, that's just to scare them into silence. But if someone decided to talk, regardless of the consequences, in rebellion of the government...eventually, they would be heard.

Prak
12-13-2006, 11:37 AM
Now you're just arguing semantics. However, what you're describing is not freedom of speech. Freedom denotes a lack of consequence. If there are consequences for saying something, freedom of speech does not exist.

z.zetsumei
12-13-2006, 02:39 PM
I was mostly correcting z.z on his definition, but I'll allow myself to be drawn into the argument. To call me incorrect is a bit unsuitable, when technically you haven't done anything to counter my point about freedom of speech existing on the internet, in fact you capitulated when you admitted that there could be sites that allow to you speak completely freely. And FTR, this discussion started with this statement:



Once you've conceded that point, we can move on to the next topic.

EDIT: I'd also like to mention that Norse makes a very solid argument with that last post, i.e. it supports my contention.

you never corrected me, nor did i need correction

freedom and freedom of speech are very similar

think about it...the essence of the term "freedom of speech" falls under the blanket definition of "freedom"

since there are consequences for certain actions in certain areas
here's something for you to ponder:
people say you have freedom of speech in America, but you can't yell "fire" in a theatre...nor can you yell "bomb" in an airport without fear of any consquence
you're still in America, but you can't say anything you want anywhere you want
more specifically, you don't have the "freedom" to say things in certain areas...and therefore your "freedom of speech" in compromised in places like theatres and airports

if you take this to another level, convicted felons in America have no rights or freedoms...not even the right to vote, and yet they're still in America

"freedom of speech" does not really exist if you think about it...what happens when you yell "bomb" in an airport and it's found out that there was no bomb?
you get arrested by any organization from the FBI to the local police...the powers of which are all granted by the government

FF1WithAllThieves
12-13-2006, 03:56 PM
Norse, you just tried to argue that if I walk into a bar and piss off the owners and they ban me, and I walk into another bar and say the same things about the owners of the other bar that pissed them off in the first place, I have freedom of speech in bars.

Furthermore, the "right" to a freedom, such as freedom of speech, has nothing to do with our argument whatsoever. The right to a freedom has more to do with personal beliefs than anything else; a man who believes he has the right to freedom of speech believes that nobody is allowed to take that freedom away from him. It has nothing to do with his ability to speak freely. And quite frankly, your argument that the damage will be done when someone posts something that is quickly edited is very fallacious; what's to say the mods don't find that post first and edit it before anybody important reads it? The mere possibility that this could happen and the fact that THE ADMINISTRATION can simply ban you and any clones of you from even making posts in the first place show that there is no freedom of speech here. Freedom of speech on the internet implies that you can go to any site and say what you want. This is clearly not the case, especially since you even have to be registered to post in the first place, and in some places have to be invited.

And anyway, you have to pay to use the internet, or be provided it by some private organisation for free. There can't be freedom of speech on the internet if you have to pay to use it to make posts.

Chrissss
12-13-2006, 04:11 PM
the first time a game thread should be moved to GD instead of from it.

NorseFTX
12-13-2006, 06:04 PM
Hee hee hee...
Well, the first few posts are actually about the game...so I think it's alright either way, whether it stays here or goes to GD....
Once people've been here, they'll know that when they see the W-Item thread, they'll be like, "Oh, it's just that thread where the serious people go and talk about things like freedom and whatnot"


Norse, you just tried to argue that if I walk into a bar and piss off the owners and they ban me, and I walk into another bar and say the same things about the owners of the other bar that pissed them off in the first place, I have freedom of speech in bars.
Yes!
You can say whatever you want, whether people like it or not!

That's what you guys are doing anyway, isn't it?
You guys are being horribly rude, even though people dislike it and everything....
Even so, you guys have the freedom to be as rude as you'd like!


Freedom denotes a lack of consequence. If there are consequences for saying something, freedom of speech does not exist.


"freedom of speech" does not really exist if you think about it

Mm! That's what it feels like to me, too.
In truth....
There is no such thing as your action having no consequences. There's always someone, or something...that's affected by something you do. The consequences aren't always visible...and they may be good or bad...but every event has consequences.
SO--! That either means...there isn't freedom of speech, and no one in this world is free...there is no freedom, and freedom is something that is "invented" by humanity.
Or--! It might just be the definition of "freedom means action without consequence" isn't what freedom really is! I've always thought freedom was "ability to choose what you wish to do"...and I think, ultimately, everyone has that....Others may pressure one into making decisions, or stuff like that...but in the end, it's always up to the person themselves to make the decision.

FF1WithAllThieves
12-13-2006, 09:24 PM
Freedom of speech does not mean there are no consequences to speaking freely. If that were ever the case, there would be no purpose in ever speaking. Remember, consequence is a neutral word simply meaning a result; it is not always a negative consequent. If there are no consequences for speaking, then nothing comes out of it.

Also, you completely missed my point. If I piss of the owner of the fist bar and he bans me, I CANNOT SPEAK IN THERE AGAIN BECAUSE I WILL BE TURNED AWAY AT THE DOOR. You can't say I have freedom of speech in bars just because I can go speak in the second bar; I merely have the capability of finding an alternative to speaking in the first bar. That's still not free speech.

NorseFTX
12-14-2006, 11:23 AM
You can still speak when you're turned away at the door!
You can shout, and people will hear; you can still say what you wish as long as you can speak. And even if people took away your voice, you can write on posters in gigantic letters and run around with it!!
The only way people can silence you is if you die, and even then, what you've said must have affected people already since it's made them want to kill you.

You always have Freedom of Speech, always--your whole life, straight until the moment you die!

.....>>
I just personally wouldn't use it to piss people off or things like that....