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puddles123
10-20-2005, 01:12 PM
Warning: This post is enormous. Put some time aside. =) (I posted this initially at the FF Net forums but that forum is pretty much dead so here goes)

I’ve watched Advent Children 3 times now. Anyways I found a number of things in the movie which I did not entirely understand and I’m willing to debate over theories behind the answers. Being FF7, the developers have decided to make things not entirely clear, which I don’t mind at all. It makes things much more interesting as we try to determine what actually happened, and the way it is presented doesn’t irritate, it makes me more thoughtful. With a few exceptions. Anyways, here goes.

1. Aeris’ role in the movie- Throughout AC, Aeris saves Cloud’s ass a number of times and also talks with him on a couple of occasions about his thoughts. A particularly memorable part where she just talks to him about his feelings would be when Cloud is riding his motorcycle to rescue the orphans at the Forgotten City. She addresses Cloud’s plea for forgiveness and helps him understand what it is exactly that he is so uncertain and guilty about. She also helps Cloud out many times throughout the movie, saving him from certain death quite a few times.

- When Cloud plunges into Bahamut’s plasma ball she helps him through.
- When Kadaj is about to blast Cloud to smithereens in the church Aeris summons her raincloud of anti-Jenova cells and scares him off. This also heals Cloud of the Geostigma.
- When Cloud begins his battle with Sephiroth, something Marlene says as the storm gathers brings up flashes of Aeris and I believe Aeris tries to help Cloud out in some way in that battle.
- Aeris helps guide Kadaj into the Lifestream by posing as his “mother” (Jenova) and then she proceeds to heal a whole lot of people with her anti-Jenova rain.
- When Cloud is killed or really messed up by Yazoo and Loz’s sacrificial explosion, Aeris resurrects him through the children.

Now my question about Aeris’ role in the movie is this: how can Aeris help Cloud? Aeris dies in the game and as far as I can remember does not help Cloud after she is gone. After all, she no longer exists within the game. Cloud is very upset by her death and believes he could have done more, but this is Aeris’ memory having an effect, not Aeris herself. It seems rather strange that after having gone through so much in the game, if Aeris was capable of helping Cloud as some sort of spirit, then why didn’t she? The way I see it is that Aeris is an Ancient, and thus has powers far beyond that of a normal human being in the FF7 world. Thus she is able to operate as a spirit in the movie by utilizing her powers. But then this brings up the question of what is a spirit in the FF7 world? We discover that in the game, Sephiroth is killed by Cloud very early in the game, but his extraordinary willpower allows him to ‘live on’ as a spirit and influence the game using powers of the mind. Sephiroth’s power is based on the mind and the fact that he was a very powerful badass before he physically died. For more details on that, I examined this essay all about Sephiroth [Only registered and activated users can see links]
Sephiroth was able to use his immense willpower to “move around mentally in a physical state he fashioned for himself to retrieve the Black Materia and summon Meteor”. Now if Aeris is a spirit, then she should operate by the same rules, but in the movie Aeris does not take physical form to influence the course of events. Actually, I suppose she does become a rainstorm of sorts, but that’s a pretty pathetic physical manifestation if that even classifies as one. Aeris mainly utilizes visions or dreams that she sends to Cloud and helps add to Cloud’s willpower or address mental dilemmas that Cloud has throughout the movie. She is basically a voice in his head. And a rainstorm.
But then again maybe the rainstorm is a way that the world addresses the problem of Geostigma and Jenova’s cells within the Lifestream. As said here, [Only registered and activated users can see links] Lifestream is the blood of the planet and rushes to heal any wounds the planet takes. The rainstorm could have been the world’s way of addressing and defeating the problem of the Geostigma. But then again, throughout the movie the raincloud is associated with Aeris in that it appears in her grove of flowers at the church and appears along with Aeris’ voice when she talks Kadaj into joining the Lifestream. Who knows? So to finalize this section: Is Aeris a spirit? What is a spirit within the FF7 world? If she is a spirit, why isn’t she like Sephiroth’s spirit? Is the raincloud Aeris or the planet healing a wound?

2. The wolf’s appearances – Now I’m sure you are thinking, “This has been asked before, there is a thread up right now,” but bear with me. This random wolf appears a number of times in the movie:

- Near the beginning the wolf stands next to Cloud’s old buster sword on a cliff overlooking Midgar.
- When Cloud and Tifa are passed out in the flowers within Aeris’ church.
- When we see the cell phone falling into the water at Ajit, the wolf is looking over the water for a brief moment (when the camera passes through the trees).
- When Cloud dies and we are brought into his mind (the white nothingness) the wolf walks up to Cloud’s unconscious form and then disappears.

There are a few theories regarding who/what the wolf is. First let me dismiss the silly ones. – The wolf is Zack. I don’t see how this works out; Zack is seen in the movie twice. Once when Cloud remembers failing him after planting the buster sword back into the ground. And again at the end of the movie when Aeris and Zack’s spirits (assuming they are spirits) walk out of the church and leave Cloud forever. Now why would Zack be represented as a wolf? The wolf disappears at the end. If the wolf was Zack then why would Zack show up as a wolf, disappear, and then show up again with Aeris, and again disappear? Kind of redundant. Same explanation goes for people who say that the wolf is Aeris. It just doesn’t match up. But the primary theory among these is the belief that the wolf symbolizes Cloud’s guilt over the deaths of Aeris and Zack. Personally, I disagree, although I can’t think up a better answer. Why would the wolf be standing next to his sword overlooking Midgar? Aeris did not die in Midgar. Zack did not die in Midgar. So why is his guilt associated with a city that nothing particularly heart-stopping occurs in within the game? Cloud does not fail anybody in Midgar, so why would he feel guilt over that aspect of his life? It would be more suitable for them to plant the sword on a cliff overlooking the Forgotten City and then put the wolf next to that if the wolf were to represent guilt. After all that is where Aeris is killed so it would be more appropriate. For the other three appearances of the wolf it makes more sense that the wolf is Cloud’s guilt, except Cloud feels guilty over never answering his phone? Kind of ridiculous. And by the way, it seems out of the ordinary to have a symbol like that show up multiple times within the movie that does not affect the plot or the characters whatsoever. Cloud never sees the wolf. In FF7 Aeris was a symbol in that she recognized Life, but she actually participated in the story and had a purpose. The wolf has no purpose except to appear as a symbol. Assuming that the wolf is supposed to symbolize guilt. It would actually be more suitable to have Cloud’s old sword represent his guilt by having it overlook the Forgotten City and for him to take it away after the story ends. After all, Cloud’s old sword partially represents all that happened within the game, so for him to get rid of it would mean he finally has overcome his problems with the past, which is the purpose of the FF7 movie. This is why I don’t think that the wolf is supposed to symbolize Cloud’s guilt. So to finalize this section: Why would the wolf appear in two parts of the movie (overlooking Midgar and the sinking cell-phone) where Cloud does not feel guilt? Is the wolf really Cloud’s guilt? Why use a wolf to represent Cloud’s guilt when his old sword could be much more relevant?

3. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo’s Origin – Throughout the movie, where these guys came from is mysterious. They first influence the course of events when they show up within the Northern Crater to take Jenova’s head from Shinra. Shinra manage to escape with the head, and Kadaj and his gang give chase. Shinra has no idea who they are initially. But when Kadaj comes to talk with Rufus, Kadaj says “We’re spirits, after all. Until we find Mother and divide up her cells… We can’t be normal.” Kadaj then proceeds to show flickers of something… else… inside of him. In retrospect we find out that he is showing flickers of Sephiroth inside of him. So are these guys Sephiroth’s spirit come again? In the game you beat three versions of Sephiroth. The first is powerful enough to take on every single character you have all at once. The second is only powerful enough to take on a single party of three. And the last one is only strong enough to fight Cloud alone. Cloud consequently kills Sephiroth once and for all, and he is for all intents and purposes completely dead now. In mind and body. So how can Kadaj and his gang be Sephiroth’s spirit manifesting again? We gather that the movie occurs pretty much right after the game because Rufus says to Cloud that Shinra is still trying to rebuild. So that just doesn’t make sense in the overall story between game and movie. Considering how well they make the transition from game to movie I find it difficult that they would bring back Sephiroth just because he is a badass villain. FF7 and the movie had a lot of thought put into them and that is one huge flaw. Alternately, they could be the work of Jenova. I believe that they could be Jenova’s cells operating within the Lifestream. This is said in the movie, and Jenova is an extremely powerful alien being. And if the Lifestream creates everything, then the Lifestream could create its own being to serve its will. Jenova’s objective in this case is to bring back Sephiroth, a human (or actually, mutant) powerful enough to serve its original goal of destroying the Planet. Thus Sephiroth is the Chosen of Jenova and this theory is also backed by Kadaj’s indecision regarding who Jenova favors more, Kadaj or Sephiroth. Kadaj knows that the ultimate goal is to resurrect Sephiroth, but he does not know whether they are resurrecting him to use him as a tool (or weapon) or for Sephiroth to take over for them because they are undoubtedly weaker than him. When Kadaj absorbs Jenova’s head cells or whatever the hell that was into him to turn into Sephiroth, I believe that this is Kadaj’s last stand. This is him saying, “Well I can’t beat you but if I have to I’ll bring out Sephiroth to kill you, even though I don’t want him in charge, just to kill you’re sorry ass.” I think Kadaj and his gang planned on resurrecting Sephiroth in a different manner because then why would Kadaj take the dumb box cross-country on motorbike when all he had to do was absorb the cells to undergo that transformation? So to finalize this section: How can Kadaj and his gang be spirits of Sephiroth? Does my theory of Kadaj’s gang being creations of Jenova within the Lifestream make sense? Why would Kadaj absorb Jenova’s cells to become Sephiroth much later in the movie when he could have done so from the moment he got the box? Could Kadaj and his gang perhaps have had another plan in mind?

4. Sephiroth’s Goal – In the game, Sephiroth’s goal after he discovers that he is a genetic experiment freak is to search for what he thinks is his mother, Jenova. In reality, Sephiroth is son of the mad scientist Hojo and Lucretia, but he never realizes this. If I remember correctly Sephiroth finds Jenova and decides that his new goal is to become for all intents and purposes, a god. Sephiroth hopes to accomplish this by calling forth meteor to collide with the planet. The planet would then try to heal the wound with an enormous surge of the Lifestream and then Sephiroth would absorb all of that power into himself. That is glossing over a lot of detail, but is overall Sephiroth’s goal (for additional details, read the Sephiroth theory here again [Only registered and activated users can see links]). In the movie, it would make sense for his goal to be the same, with the slight change of killing off Cloud and all of his friends before trying to summon Meteor. But this isn’t the case. In the movie Sephiroth says “What I hope for, Cloud, is to use the world as a ship to sail the darkness of space. As Mother did before me, you see. One day we will discover a new world. We will create our shining future on that ground.” Sounded rather ridiculous to me. Sephiroth does not supply any details as to how he plans to use the world as some sort of spaceship or what exactly his idea of a “shining future” is. Kind of difficult when all you can do is fly around like Neo and kick ass with a very, very long sword. But then I put it into context. Perhaps Sephiroth means that after he executes his original plan of absorbing all of the Lifestream, he would then become powerful enough to guide the lifeless hunk of rock that remained wherever he wanted. But to someone who just saw the movie, what Sephiroth says would sound absurd without previous knowledge from playing the game. So perhaps the goal is entirely separate from what we previously know about Sephiroth. Again, Sephiroth’s idea of a shining future has no previous reference in the game or movie, and is thus left to the viewer’s imagination. So to finalize this section: Why does Sephiroth change his goals between game and movie? Or does he change them? Is Sephiroth’s stated goals in the movie a continuation of his original objectives? Any other possible speculation?

5. Jenova’s Headshot – This is a short one and not really a theory, but I need a break from writing the long ones. Rufus shoots the box that contains Jenova’s head. We see liquid seep out (Jenova’s cells). Later, as the motorcycle chase from hell is coming to an end, Kadaj pulls to a stop in Aeris’ church of all places. Why he decided to go there is another question, but not exactly relevant. Anyways, Kadaj looks into the box, expecting to see Mother for the first time. But in the box he sees nothing. The hole created by Rufus has allowed all of Jenova’s cells to be lost. Kadaj cries out almost as in pain from losing his mother and then later fights Cloud in a rather pissed off manner suggesting that he realizes that his mother is lost. Kadaj, in the end, loses. As Kadaj hangs onto a ledge with only the box in hand, he hurls the box at Cloud. Cloud bats it away or slices it in half with his sword (happens too fast to really tell) and the top of the box comes off. And, what the hell, Jenova cells squirt out. Kadaj leaps to it, absorbs the cells, becomes Sephiroth, etc. But did I miss something? I thought all the cells were gone and Kadaj had failed. He cries over the loss of his mother and then the cells are magically back! Is this inconsistency or am I missing something here?

6. The Orphans’ Purpose – Throughout the movie we receive footage of orphans such as Denzel, Marlene, and the girl with the mog doll, along with hundreds of others. All of them (but Marlene for some reason) get the Geostigma virus (why is a separate question I will address later). All of them are then sought after by Kadaj and his gang… Why? Kadaj begins by convincing the orphans that the planet wants to hurt them and that Geostigma is a virus created by the planet to hurt the orphans. Kadaj continues by stating that all of the orphans and Kadaj are siblings: chosen ones who have “inherited Mother’s cells that were absorbed in the Lifestream.” Kadaj then says that the planet is trying to interfere and that together they can bring their “family’s power together and get back at the planet.” So Kadaj is trying to use the orphans as some sort of energy resource? Wow. It just hit me. Kadaj corrupts the orphans to his way of thinking by having them drink the Jenova-infected water. Kadaj then draws upon the combined power of the orphans along with his own in order to summon Bahamut. Yes, that sounds right. And the orphans along with Denzel come back to their senses after Bahamut arrives. But then again, they do not do so immediately. I specifically remember as the dragon comes swooping in, Reno tries to save one of the orphans (who memorably pushes him away by shoving fingers up his nose), but the orphan had not been released from Kadaj’s control yet. One could argue that when Kadaj is distracted by Rufus revealing and then hurling Jenova’s head out the side of the building, that distraction could have ended the control. But that occurs a while after Cloud’s crew arrives and attacks Bahamut. And Denzel regains his senses right before Cloud’s crew arrives (when Denzel suicidally charges Bahamut, Barret steps in his way and is the first of Cloud’s crew to engage the dragon). Hmm… I sense inconsistency. So to finalize: What is the purpose of the orphans within the movie? Is it to summon Bahamut? Or is it possibly just to deter people from interfering (such as when Cloud attacks at the Forgotten City or when random nameless people yell at Yazoo and Loz pulling down the monument of Meteor’s defeat)?

Vala
10-21-2005, 01:12 AM
It has been proven that centient beings are able to exist from within the lifestream or Gaia itself (jenova,sephiroth) so this rule can also be applied to Aerith, Sure she takes physical form after the final battle as she is seen in the church, but prefers not to intervene during the movie as it would be likely have upset cloud and detered him from his motives.

the rain storms are reminicant of Aeriths Limit break Healing wind and who knows maybe it is refered to as healing Rain in japanese versions

The childrens role within this film was only that Geostigma is easily detected with kids, also as a possibility that the kids were just the packaging to return jenova cells to the physical plane...
Children are born with geostigma as Jenova's cells are alive in the lifestream and the new life is infected with jenova when created, this is why marlene is not sick, plus i tend to stand by the theory that those pink ribbons are helping defend against the illness.

Sephiroths goal was to find the "promised land" with mother.
he intends to gather the power from the Gaia (or lifestream) and then use cloud's planet as a vessle to travel to the promised land.

I believe that Jenova was searching for the promised land as it has Gaia in abundance
and that she may hold a vendetta against the Cetra for imprisoning her.

Kadaj and his brothers are purely spirits of sephiroth my guess is after cloud had battled sephiroth down so that he could neither be mental or physical, new entities are created, sephiroth himself is too weak to return but broken down into three new spirits provides oppertunity for him to find mother and continue the plan - Kadaj feels sephiroth within his existance and resents it, because he is unsure whether "mother" loves him or is using him to recreate sephiroth, reguardless he ultimately wants mother to be happy.

As for shinra possesing jenovas head, when the container is shot, Jenova's skull would have cracked and liquids would be seeping out slowly, and after beeing ripped in half by the buster sword more of this substance should be emmited - i dunno what it is, brain fluid?

also when Kadaj shows shinra the flickering i believe this indicates he is calling the jenova cells or sending them a message, because at these same times cloud clutches his arm.

I may be totally off with all of this but it is my own personal understanding.

Ken 'Godhand' Mishima
10-22-2005, 06:19 AM
I don't think Kadja and the others were 'spirits of Sephiroth', because Kadja wanted to prove Jenova could rely on him and not Sephiroth. I think they were just spirits that were in the lifestream, and were manipulated by Jenova into using the Geostigma to create new bodies. Not 'real' bodies, but physical enough to do Jenova's will.

As for the Zack-Wolf thing, it could just as easily be the same with Zack. He uses the lifestream powers or whatnot, to create a physical form for him to watch the actions going on in the real world. Like..an avatar. A representation of himself, but not really him. I mean, if they can wander around as spooks, this is not a big feat.

As for 'Aeris helping Cloud in the Sephiroth Battle' I don't see how. At all.

And Cloud wasn't resurrected through the children, that's kinda cornball. I'd have to say it was just him being resurrected through the lifestream. Since all things pass through it, he'd be able to just easily end up there. The same way he was able to go all the way from the Northern Crater to that other place they found him, in the game, with the wheel chair.

Jenova's head WAS in the canister, not just her cells. Kadja could have been freaked out by seeing a hole in his mommy's head. I mean, who wouldn't be freaked out by that? He absorbed the head, not the cells. You wouldn't have a bunch of cells in a canister and call it a head, now would you?

white noize ff7
10-22-2005, 07:02 AM
the subtitled version is terribly translated, "Your late, Bitch!", etc, so i think it'd be best until the properly translated US version lands before trying to rationalise the plot.

Gentleman Ghost
10-22-2005, 04:59 PM
I thought it was Jenova's neck, that they were after

hikari2002
10-22-2005, 06:55 PM
I thought it was Jenova's neck, that they were after
yea it was her neck................

CRUNCH BAR
10-22-2005, 08:16 PM
Cloud feels Guilty about what happened at the Forgotten City, that's why the wolf is there. Wedge, Biggs and Jessie died in Midgar, he could feel guilty about that.

Gentleman Ghost
10-23-2005, 12:43 AM
yea it was her neck................

Then what are they on about with "Jenovas head" WHAT THE!?

hikari2002
10-23-2005, 12:25 PM
I think Aeris purpose in teh movie was to act as a spirit to kinda watch over the world...and yet she is an Ancient...not only that I think she was there to help Cloud get his confidents back and get him up on his feet again....

the children, seemed to be an army for Sephy I guess....they're all linked right ??? by Jenova...so I guess when Sephy comes back and if does win, he would need some minions to help out......

I think his goal was to use the planet as a vessel to travel to another planet like Jenova to inffect or kill all those ppl like Jenova was originally intending to. Remember that Sephy's grudge grew soooooooooooo big that he hated everything and want to kill everything.

Tidus 66
10-23-2005, 02:00 PM
I think Sephiroth would absorve the jenova cells from the children to recover full power

Gentleman Ghost
10-23-2005, 10:11 PM
Sephiroth is the man!

Tidus 66
10-24-2005, 08:03 AM
Or he would collect all cells and bring back Jenova

Buster Sword
11-02-2005, 03:29 PM
You're right. It was Jenova's neck they were going for.

WAY TO PAY ATTENTION. You get an A+ for participation.
You're right, again. We should all just wait for the English version to come out and see what the crap they all really meant.
I didn't notice the wolf that often. I only saw this once. But at the beginning I'm sure the wolf and the buster sword(me) had a swell chat. We did. We're hanging out right now, knocking back a couple of cold ones, and arguing over these long, long, long, long theories.
GOOD WORK. A- IN THEORY WRITING.
I had no idea that Aeris is what saved and healed Cloud time and again. This proves MY theory once and for all.
"A dead Aeris is better than a living Aeris, but not as good as no Aeris at all."

Seriously, her death was sad, and she was an important character, but still USELESS. (until this movie.)
As said in the movie, Kadaj was just a "bug" or "larva" that could "hatch" and one day become Sephiroth. Funny they mentioned it cause it happened about 5 minutes after that.
As for the three "spirits",Kadaj,Yazoo, and Loz......I just figured they were more of Sephiroth's clones. You know, the numbers, in Nibelheim. The guys who didn't make much sense and wore dark,dark clothes. They call Cloud their "brother." And they were trying to achieve another reunion.

Anyways that's all I gotta say. Ooh! Ooh! While you're waiting for the English version to come out.....beat the game from the beginning using only Cloud's Buster Sword. Prove your true worth at this game and never get a better weapon. See if it's still possible to beat. (er...I ought to try that!)

d1soldier
11-03-2005, 12:13 AM
i still havent watched it...

Gentleman Ghost
12-02-2005, 09:36 PM
You're right. It was Jenova's neck they were going for.

WAY TO PAY ATTENTION. You get an A+ for participation.

Is this for me, hikari or both of us....anyway.....i (we) was right! aha!!

CodyC
06-17-2006, 11:05 AM
First of all FFAC is out in english... I hadn't known until I saw it at Walmart for $20. To access that select languages from the title screen. Buster Sword is completely right!!

1. Aeris is not necessarily a spirit, but she was able to continue into the lifestream without being diluted as most people have (this is detailed in a japanesed book called something along the lines of, "A Maiden Through Time" . Her and Sephiroth are different because she is a direct decendant of the Cetra (Ancients) while Sephiroth is Jenova (not necessarily an ancient) cells implanted into the unborn fetis that was hojo and Lucrecias baby. The raincloud is both.

notes- the most likely reason the raincloud appears in the church is because Mako/Lifestream is extremely abundant there which is why flowers grow there and no other place in midgar. Also she is fairly preoccupied, as the book details, during the end of FFVII and that is why she does not help cloud.

2. I think the wolf is just a way of showing off... look at the hair on the upclose shots, especially on a plasma screen.

3. kudos to Buster, Kadaj and his gang are not "spirits" but creations made the same way as cloud... failed clones... this is why they call him brother or big brother throughout the movie. Maybe Kadaj couldn't open the box with his own strength alone. The reason Kadaj needs Sephiroth could be that he was not infused with enough Jen cells to be as powerful as Sephiroth, and that's why he needs them.

notes- AC takes place 2 years after FFVII.

4. As already stated, sephiroth may not be changing his goals, maybe the northern crater was not the foretold promised land and said place is located on a different planet.

5. More kudos, although I am not certain, I believe Kadaj was just freaking out because there was a hole in Jen's head. Or he was overwhelmed with happiness or some stupid crap like that.

6. As far as I could tell the orphans had 2 uses, number 1: To make Cloud wreck on his bike, and number 2: To gather people to the Edge town center memorial.

Jarosik
06-18-2006, 06:06 AM
2. The wolf’s appearances

Other than the points already mentioned, the only thing I can contribute as speculation is that the Wolf looks strikingly similar to those that you can battle outside of Nibelheim. So what's the link you ask? Well none, other than that Cloud beleived he was from Nibelheim, and he displayed a lot of guilt there too when it was burned down by Sepiroth. I seem to recall him 'losing' his own mother in that part of the story line (It's been that long since I played it)

Cloud On A Stick
06-19-2006, 03:55 PM
First of all FFAC is out in english... I hadn't known until I saw it at Walmart for $20. To access that select languages from the title screen.

cheack out the date of the last post..wasnt released untill wat was it feb or march? or was it april?

IDX
06-20-2006, 12:11 AM
The wolf is a symbol in a movie. Throughout all movies, symbolism is used. I don't know what the symbol represents, maybe the whole 'lone-wolf' thing that Cloud is going through right now. But all we can do is guess.

SatanicLulu
06-21-2006, 08:57 AM
Aeris (she is Aerith in the japanese version and in the credits, but i'm not going to nit-pick) is a cross between a memory and a spirit. Her role in the film is just to help Cloud get over what happened in the game. Only then can he truely kick butt and live in peace once more.

Sephiroth came back as a physical being because of the experiments getting their hands on Jenova's head. He wants to destroy everything and his hatred of the world stops him from moving on. Aeris doesn't have any emotions preventing her passing into the next world.

Even if she is only a memory, to quote Trommel in ff x-2, "Even the most unassuming of memories can console a wounded spirit.

That's what i think, for what it's worth.

sephiaya
06-22-2006, 04:53 AM
Hey seeing as how the film is called advent Children, that must be connected with the end of FF VII. if anyone remebers after you see the 500 years later video at the end of the credits, when the screen goes black you hear children laugh.

plus also as you kill sephiroth if you notice he has a little smerk almost like he is saying i will be back.

ohh and i would say that the wolf is used as a way to sell merchindise. Square-enix japan had so many things with the cloudy wolf symbol, Earring, ring, t-shirt, card holder ECT. I only presume that this is the case as in 7 the wolf never appeared.

Advent children leads you on, but does not answer questions, it only leaves more questions, so i would think that they would be answered in both Dirge of cerberus and Crisis Core. i think we would find out about the wolf in Crisis Core.

pennybags
07-08-2006, 06:33 PM
the main reason that cloud was able to defeat all his enimies because he had done enough "dilly-dally shilly-shelly"ing or thats wat i gathered

Sanctus
07-10-2006, 01:25 PM
Hello this is my first forum, and no I am not an arrogant little (please fill in chosen word) but I have seen FFVII AC 30 times in japanese and 10 times in English, (I have also played the game so I hope I know what I am talking about, and yes, I have no life^^)

Aerith/Aeris
In the movie we see Aerith alot, maybe not as much as we could hope but enough to help the story. What we see of her is her consiousness, not spirit, and Cloud is the only one that really "sees" her, while other members of the group (Tifa) can feel her. Aerith is dead, (whether or not u agree with this is up to u), but because 1. she is a Cetra she can hold her consiousness together 2. She continues to worry about Cloud and the others, therefore she cannot rest. Now why can't she take physical form as much as Sephiroth? Because if she could, her will power would be just as strong as the main villan (then she could have easily broken Sephiroth's hold over Holy, or even hold Meteor back) but no, she doesn't have that much will power, she had just enough at the end to appear in the church to say goodbye to Cloud, but really, was her BODY really there? or was it just another one of her visits into Cloud's consiousness/or was it because the event took place in the church did that make it possible? (after she left the church she walked into white and dissappeared, symbolizing at long last, that she is able to rest. The Raincloud, if u remember from FFVII, is to be similar to Aerith's final limit break, Great Gospel, in which rain falls during the cinmatic.

What is the Wolf?
Originally I thought the wolf was Zack, cause u all say that the Buster Sword is Cloud's sword, who was it's previous owner? ZACK!! so anyway, the guilt thing I thought was cool, just maybe its used to symbolize old memories of Cloud and Zack and their guilt, or it could just be guilt in general, and we see it where different kinds of guilt may take place. But most likely Square was just showing off what they could do^^

What are Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz?
Its obvious that this trio are Sephiroth clones, probably the last ones, I have proof cause waht did those black cloaked guys in the game and these three talk about ALL the time? And lets face it, bad guys HAVE to do things that take a LONG time to get to, that, and maybe Kadaj wanted to protect 'mother' by killing Cloud himself, as that didn't go as planned, dum dah dah dum! Sephiroth! and as Kadaj stated earlier in the movie, "Until we find Mother and join with her cells..."

Sephiroth's Goal
Lets face it, do we really know Sephiroth's LONG term goals in the game? he would kinda be the person to only tell u so much but leave the rest for later. Know how did Jenova get on this planet? It fell from the heavens, thats right Vincent! But what made that huge crater? just Jenova? or maybe a planet it killed by "absorbing all the life and becoming one with all the knowledge so it could rule over every soul?" and then it wanted to "sail the darkness of space.... until it found a new planet, and on it's soil it wanted to make another 'shining' future. DUH!!! Sephiroth is being controlled by Jenova!!! He's doing what it wants him to do, what it's always been doing, the 'Crisis from the skys' is really a being that destroys planets, hurls them into other ones and continues the process. Sephitroth was just Jenova's favourite puppet cause really he is a part of Jenova, and is the easiest to manipulate,(now someone should take away the Manipulate Materia from Jenova so Sephiroth can live his own life^^) and oh if your wondering why the craters so small its probably because after so many light years in space it fell apart and burned up too, (remember bugenhagens machine?)

Jenova's Head
The only part of Jenova left, it seems like a rather small box for it, so i think its the REMAINs of the head, bits of fleshy pieces and stuff all clumped together, maybe even frozen in Mako and began to thaw throughout the movie, (green liquid)

Orphans
These were just put in for victem purposes, because other than that, there is no real proof of any other use for them, Kadaj may just be using them a hostages (as stated above) to shield himself.

This is all I have now any corrections or problems with these are welcome, after we are trying to figure out someone elses idea, not or own^^

master_guru88427
07-24-2006, 09:44 AM
From what I've read, I think that the wolf represents Cloud's loneliness. You know "lone wolf." Also at the end of the game, Aeris pulls Cloud back to reality after he kills Sephiroth, so he helps him mentally. In addition at the end of the game you see Aeris in the lifestream trying to stop meteor. Aeris controls the lifestream.

Dzung
07-24-2006, 01:34 PM
I agree with IDX Rider and master_guru88427...
I think the wolf represents his loneliness.
At the end of the movie, the wolf comes up to him and then disappears. This represents him not being alone anymore... and then in the end he says, "I'm not alone."

pennybags
07-29-2006, 06:49 PM
If Aries controls the lifestream because shes a cetra than what about all the other cetras that died at the hand of JENOVA and they could control the lifestream she would have minute control of the life stream and all those who say that there are no smoke plumes in the first scene look at the bottom left of the screen when red xiii has reached the top of the hill

pennybags
07-29-2006, 06:53 PM
when aries pulls cloud through bahumats blast its his will power to defeat him and not that she's helping him . look at one of the last scenes in the game u see his mind playing tricks on him and thinking that its aries' when it tifas which shows he wants to see her more than anybody even Zack

Eternal_Martyr
08-01-2006, 02:05 AM
Before I state my own theories, please bare in mind I only skimmed the initial post (and reading the bold print), so I apologize in advance if I step over the OP's words and personal theories, but while it's fresh in my mind I'd like to go ahead and give my own beliefs.

1. Aeris’ role in the movie-
It is of my own belief that she and Zack are both within the lifestream throughout the course of the movie. I think the help Aeris lends to Cloud isn't so much physical as emotional. What I've read makes it seem like she's literally empowering him, and in my opinion, she is, but in a different way. "We are stronger because of the memories we've shared with others." I think throughout the movie, Cloud unconsciously called out to her, remembering the times they shared before her untimely death, and that newfound strength is what allowed the seemingly impossible to happen. I remember reading something along the lines of, "True strength stems from those we long to protect." Those we long to protect of course, being loved ones, and so Cloud takes that a step further by emotionally clicking with Aeris in the lifestream.

2. The wolf’s appearances –
Wolves and dogs are similar, no? Dog = man's best friend, so Wolf = man's best friend. Best friend being someone you hold dear, a loved one. This stems back to that emotional link, but in a more physical form. I think it's just a physical metaphor for that concept.

3. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo’s Origin –
Weren't Jenova cells inserted into many bodies? Couldn't they be later products of this than Cloud and Sephirtoh? My FFVII knowledge is a bit rusty, but wouldn't that make sense? The Jenova cells long to revive her, so it's natural they want to do so. As for Sephiroth's reappearance, your guess is as good as mine, but I think between their similar interests and the influx of Jenova cells within their body, along with the Lifestream's repetitive flow and Sephiroth's undying devotion to his cause, that he was able to reform in the physical world again.

4. Sephiroth’s Goal –
Technically, he IS a son of Jenova. Didn't Hojo inject Jenova cells into his baby before it was born? That makes Jenova his mother aswell. I think his motive remains the same: awaken Jenova and destroy the planet. He says he wants to wipe mankind out, and use the planet as a ship to traverse the galaxy, and so on. Didn't he say something similar in the original?

5. Jenova’s Headshot –
My understanding is the head may be gone, but that doesn't mean all the cells were gone aswell. Hell, maybe the head was never IN that box to begin with; I don't recall seeing it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't. Regardless, the cells looked to be in a gooey like substance, and apparently, not all was gone. I think Kadaj's initial reaction was the loss of the head, not the cells. He later tried fusing with the cells in a last ditch effort as he plummeted to his death.

6. The Orphans’ Purpose –
My take is the Geostigma stems from the Jenova cells, which have recycled into these orphens. The planet, being nearly wiped out by sources stemming from Jenova, attempts to put a stop to it with this virus. Kadaj needs a good source of the cells to reawaken Mother (complete inference there, as I don't know the specifics on this reawakening), and chooses to take advantage of the bodies they're in. I think this doubles as the general love for children is universal, and plays, in my mind, a part in Cloud's character development throughout the movie. Marlene just happens to be free of the virus, but being a kind spirit, doesn't shun those with it.

wow-j
08-31-2006, 07:38 AM
I have to say that i agree with you when you say that leaving some misterioues things make the movie more interesting and not incomplete, and about the other things... well Aerith is a Cetra so maybe she can do things that we don't know and Kadaj Loz and Yazoo have Jenova cells like Sephiroth and maybe the spirit that is now in the Streamlife has the power to show himself through them. !!!

ili
09-01-2006, 07:06 AM
I've always believed that the wolf represented Zack but now I'm not so sure. It really doesn't make sense to have a wolf there and then Zack shows up at the end in a humanoid form. I'd still like to think though that Zack was there watching over his friend if not as obviously as Aerith was.

This is going to sound bad but I read a fanfiction and a really interesting point came up. There seems no real rhyme or reason behind Cloud having stuck the Buster Sword where he did, overlooking Midgar. But when you think back on the game... when Zack was killed they were overlooking Midgar. Maybe that is the place that Zack fell and Cloud put the Buster Sword there as a tomb stone. So if the wolf was sniffing around there it could very well have been somehow related at the very least to a memory of Zack. I don't have an explination for the scene with the phone. It does seem feasable though that the wolf could mean guilt and loneliness. Maybe it is all these things in one.

Lets not forget that the wolf seems to be Clouds symbol in general. What with his bike being called Fenrir and him having all these wolf pendants and buckles.

Ok... I just looked at Wikipedia and it has this to say It was stated in the Advent Children Reunion Files production book that the wolf, known as the "Cloudy Wolf," represents the deepest part in Cloud's psyche, and appears in response to some burden he is carrying, as well represent him being a "lone wolf" since he seemingly severed himself from his friends and family.

Sheilita
09-22-2006, 08:50 PM
Aeris help cloud because she's an ancient, and thats guys can do it everithing even if they are in the lifestream. I don't know if this can help you, but, good luck =)

noblearrogant
09-24-2006, 02:25 AM
I always tought Jenova communicated with Kadaj on that scene at the church.He screamed cause Jenova 'told' him he wasn't the 'chosen' one but Sephiroth
Meh i don't know...

Dranzera
11-24-2006, 02:34 PM
[I think that Kadaj shouted after he saw the head of Jenova cause he was sad that that's all that's left of her.

Yllek
11-28-2006, 01:15 PM
Ok, my apologies, I haven't read through the entire of this thread, I simply don't have time, so some of this may be repeating what others have said.

I play FF7 twice annually, at least; I'm sad and I love the game that much. The film, whilst not astounding, is still a damn good film and I've watched it many times in Japanese (subtitled) and English.
Here are my thoughts:

AERIS:
As someone rightly said, the rainstorm is essentially her using Grand Gospel; hence it cures cloud of the Geostigma and the pool created by it in the church is later used to heal the near-dead Cloud and the children.
She's not a spirit like Sephiroth is in the game. Remember, the first 'Sephiroth' in the game (that the characters follow and who appears before the Jenova BIRTH battle on the ship) is just a clone. One of the more successful of the many clones that take part in the Reunion (right before Jenova DEATH).
Also, to answer your question of is the rain-cloud Aeris or the lifestream; it's both. During the game, numerous references are made to "Returning to the Lifestream". As such, Aeris is part of the lifestream and we can assume as she is Cetra (an Ancient) she probably has some kind of power over the lifestream. The visions of her prove that her spirit lives on, so control of the LS would be possible.

THE WOLF:
I agree with the guilt theory and I did from the first moment it was theorized. Outside Midgar, he does have guilt. In the game, the spot where Cloud has stuck his Buster Sword, is the point where Zac was shot dead. As Cloud lived, he feels the guilt that Zac rescued him, then died so close to safety.
When they have passed out in the Church, it is his guilt that he loved Aeris and that he now loves Tifa (Tifa confirms this theory when the two of them talk in their room, and she asks if he wants her or a memory).
Where the wolf is looking into the water; that is the pool where Cloud lays Aeris to rest during the game, thus a blatant link to his guilt.
And the last appearance is when Cloud is finally freed from his guilt, hence the wolf disappearing.

KADAJ AND CO.
They are remnants of Sephiroth. It says this with lines like "Poor little remnant" etc... Sephiroth, as seen in the final battles (which I will explain later) is far more than human. When he dies, his spirit lingers and creates three 'shades', these are Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo.
As for the battle, it's of no significance that everyone fights Bizarro, but then only 3 fight Safer Sephiroth, then Cloud alone fights the real Sephiroth. They all fight Bizzarro 'cos they're all there, only 3 fight Safer, as the boss needed to be harder and notice how only Cloud can hurt the core in the Bizarro battle at first, so only Clouds party fights Safer.
The 'Final Sephiroth' battle is Cloud fighting the memory of Sephiroth. It takes place inside his mind. The memory of Sephiroth has haunted Cloud for years, and this is him finally slaying it.
Sephiroth may be dead, but much like Aeris, he's anything BUT gone, and he's not just the son of Hojo and Lucretia... But I'll come to that later.

SEPHIROTHS GOAL:
Has always been to become a God and follow his Mothers footsteps. In the game, he wishes to become a God, like his mother, and to destroy the world, as was Jenova's first intention. Remember, that Sephiroth may be born of Lucretia, but he's genetically Jenova's son... Hojo, having conceived a child with Lucretia, infused the unborn embryo with Jenova cells. Thus, Lucretia gives birth to a child who is as much Jenova's son, as he is hers and Hojos. Can you imagine how pissed Vincent must feel?

JENOVASS HEADSHOT:
Indeed, Rufus lands a shot into the box in an attempt to drain it, but he hits it too high. When Kadaj opens it in the Church, he's not crying in pain at that he failed, but both in joy that he and his mother are reunited (throughout the film we see that the remnants are VERY emotional) but also at the idea that he is unwanted and that he will be 'sacrificed' to recreate Sephiroth. More on this with the orphans.
Until the last moment, Kadaj believes he can recreate Sephiroth without sacrificing the remnants, hence his running. Perhaps it was this way all along, or perhaps Rufus' shot drained enough fluid, but he finally absorbs the head to become Sephiroth; though not a full powered Sephiroth (hence Loz and Yazoo aren't also combined).

THE ORPHANS PURPOSE:
...Is much the same as that of the Sephiroth clones in the game. It states this when Kadaj talks to Rufus near the beginning, they talk of the Reunion. In the game (and I think in the movie) it states that whenever Jenova is separated, the cells will always try and reunite, thus reforming Jenova. When Jenova and Sephiroth are destroyed, think about where they are... In the Lifestream...
Their destroyed cells fall into the lifestream and so infect many of the people whom the lifestream touches; the orphans and Cloud amongst theorised others. Kadaj takes the Orphans where he uses the Black Water (I take that name from the OST track that plays at that point), created using the Control materia, to control the kids. They then proceed to Edge, where he summons Bahamut to destroy the Midgar monument (which he believes contains Jenovas Head) and uses the kids as a way of keeping the public from interfering. We can be certain that the Orphans are not involved in the summoning. Throughout the FF7 universe, summons are all called the same way; with Materia. We see Kadaj use the Bahamut Sin materia to summon it; there is no involvement from the Orphans.
Due to Tifa's intervention etc, Denzel awakens from the control faster than the others, who awaken simple as the Black Water's power fades.

I hope that clears some stuff up.
I've made it a duty to learn as much as I can about this game, though I can't guarantee I haven't missed something somewhere, lol.
(Please don't think me arrogant, I don't believe I know it all, but I've studied it hard).

Also, remember it's just a game and a film. It's created by humans and plot holes/inconsistencies etc... are all possible. All of this is only educated theorising based upon information given in the game. The only person who can tell you for certain exactly what is meant is Hironobu Sakaguchi and his team.

Thanks

Yllek


P.S. I am aware that the Japanese and AC official name is Aerith, but here's a little something for all you jerks who made Square use the 'official Japanese name' (tw*ts):
Aeris, as a girls name, sounds pretty and mysterious.
Aerith sounds like a retarded lisp.
If in the Japanese version Sephiroth had been called Loser Von Suksminob would you have wanted it changed?
Case closed.

Yllek
12-01-2006, 07:04 AM
I'd also like to point out the reason for the pink ribbons.
It's got nothing to do with Geostigma... look who wears them; the original FF7 characters.
Notice the colour, pink.

They wear those ribbons in memory of Aeris.

Ghost_of_Freedom
12-02-2006, 06:00 AM
I will give my opinion on some of these matters, as I do not have the patience to comment on every one.

Kadaj and his gang are pieces of sephiroth, each representing a part of him. When Sephiroth was killed he returned to the lifestream, where he began to be broken down by it, but his strong will allowed him to break out when the lifestream had only managed to breakl him down into three pieces. These pieces manifested in Kadaj and his gang.

As for Kadaj running away. I believe he was strugglung with his mother possibly favouring Sephiroth over him and did not want to find out what would happen if he merged with her cells, and only did so when he felt he had no choice.

Thats all for now.

... I beileve that Final Fantasy leaves so much unexplained so as to be open to interpretaion. Sort of like when a band doesnt want to explain all of its songs so that the listiner can interpret it how they see fit, and according to thier experiances in life.

Yllek
12-04-2006, 12:58 PM
Precisely!

I just finished my second run of FF7 this year, and watched the film again last night, and something became painfully obvious to me...

Kadaj does not use Materia to control the children. They believe that Kadaj and his gang can heal them of Geostigma (hence they followed them to the Forgotten City) and trust that drinking the water will cure them.
When Kadaj enters the water, and subsequently, the orphans drink of it; the Reunion Instinct is awakened within them and thus they follow Kadaj to where the Reunion will take place...
Theory.

Also, Rufus' headshot... It doesn't exist. He's shooting at Kadaj as he falls, he misses and coincidentally hits the box; nothing more.

I'll continue watching it, continue questioning.

KestralSky
03-13-2007, 04:51 PM
I heard somewhere that one of those 'orphans' was tifas and clouds child.

I think thats a little..... far off.

I think Sephiroth was able to come back so strongly in physical form because of his pure hatred for all. Aeris never wanted to come back, she was just eager to give all the help she can, and prehaps she felt physical appearence was not needed, just the odd shower.

And about the reason why she didnt help Cloud in the game.. I believe its recon square only decided to include her when making the film. In the game, we dont hear from her at all after she dies (except the odd flckery image). Aeris has such a huge fan base, prehaps they thought giving aeris quite a big part in the film would make us all happy. I must admit, it was nice to hear aeris's theme in the film, sadly it made me smile. So for me it worked!

lots of prehaps's and maybe's. but thats the best bit right?

Unyeilding Heriophant
03-14-2007, 03:21 AM
Other than the points already mentioned, the only thing I can contribute as speculation is that the Wolf looks strikingly similar to those that you can battle outside of Nibelheim. So what's the link you ask? Well none, other than that Cloud beleived he was from Nibelheim, and he displayed a lot of guilt there too when it was burned down by Sepiroth. I seem to recall him 'losing' his own mother in that part of the story line (It's been that long since I played it)


Just had to solve this little one for you. Cloud IS from Nibelheim. That part of his memory is not fake in any way, shape or form. He DID grow up with Tifa, and he DID lose his actual mother when Sephiroth burned Nibelheim to the ground. It's the being in SOLDIER that was fake. Cloud was nothing more than a lowly grunt in Shinra.

Roxas20
03-14-2007, 03:09 PM
Yeah, cuz he MADE UP all of HIS stories from the stories that Zack told him. So, when Zack was shot and killed by Shinra soldiers, he just put himself in Zack's place, making it his story. But, later the truth about Cloud was revealed abpit how he defeated Sephiroth at the Mako Reactor, after Sephiroth wounded Zack and Tifa. And also, how he wasn't first class, but a grunt like Heriophant said. That's about that.

9innail
03-17-2007, 07:47 PM
Is the raincloud Aeris or the planet healing a wound?:
has everyone forgotten about Holy? in the game bugenhaggen says that holy's power will be awoken when it turns a pale green color, when aerith dies it falls to the bottom of the water in the forgotten city, and turns pale green. when meteor finally arrives the lifestream prevents full destruction, not holy. now (in the movie) jenova cells are causing this geostigma, which if brought to full potential, will not only threaten the existence of mankind, but bring about the events that lead to the revival of a being threatening the earth itself. holy was said to be used only once. since it obviously wasnt used in the game, i believe the power of holy was the "healing rain" from the movie. holy (and aerith) saved its power for when it was truly needed, for the real threat that could not have otherwise been avoided.

Zack did not die in Midgar: no, he died right there where the sword is...

Cloud does not fail anybody in Midgar: umm...can anybody say sector 7?

Does my theory of Kadaj’s gang being creations of Jenova within the Lifestream make sense?:absolutely. spot on! you really must have amazing powers of observation for that one

Ek0mst0p1
06-27-2007, 11:43 AM
Ok as far as the wolf guilt thing: The wolf by midgar is in the spot that Zack died. If you watch the scene in the last disk of final fantasy 7 you will se that zack and cloud were captured after there ass whipping by seph.

Next the one in the church and by the ancient capitol is obvious. Cloud met Aerith in the chuch and she died in the ancient capitol. k

Kadaj Yazoo and Loz are incarnations of Seph's will and are made of pure negative mako (Mako tainted by jenova cells but does not contain jenova cells) that is why once kadaj gets some jenova cells he turns into seph.

Zack is clouds best friend k we all know that i hope. Zack died trying to save cloud on that bluff (you know what a bluff is right) just outside of Midgar.

Ek0mst0p1
06-27-2007, 11:49 AM
The rain is Aerith's Great Gospel Limit Break k. Anyone ever seen that one it Heals all abnormal status effect cures fully and makes you temporary invinceable (Peerless status=temp invivinceability) and holy is Blue it is the Big Blue blob thing that starts fighting meteor then the green lines of life stream come up and push meteor back so Holy can fight it properly.

Ek0mst0p1
06-27-2007, 02:15 PM
No more consecutive post i promis. The battle with seph and cloud one on one is a real fight. Therfore not a memory and not killing the idea of seph. Seph is there and the fight is taking place in the life stream. He is fighting the real seph not a figiment of his imagination. If you read the omega guid it states:
After fighting Bizarro Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth, Cloud has a final 1-on-1
battle with Sephiroth in the spiritual realm. Although the ego of this
Sephiroth Clone was stricken with an inferiority complex in the past, Cloud
fights on and achieves victory in the end.

TM
06-27-2007, 02:51 PM
Why have you triple posted? there is an edit button, use it!

Ek0mst0p1
06-27-2007, 03:01 PM
Why have you triple posted? there is an edit button, use it!

Yeah but i keep getting a page cannot be displayed. I think it is because of my works firewall but anyway sorry.

BTW you wasted your time by telling me this does it make you feel special. Cool flame me for being at work and getting blocked by a firewall now i am home and can edit ok.

TM
06-27-2007, 03:08 PM
Wow your a cunt, I simply said there is an edit button and that you should use it instead of posting more than twice, but no instead of just explaining why you can't edit it, you have to act like a cunt.

Ek0mst0p1
06-27-2007, 03:22 PM
Wow your a cunt, I simply said there is an edit button and that you should use it instead of posting more than twice, but no instead of just explaining why you can't edit it, you have to act like a cunt.

No you see there is a way of saying nice things and there is a way of being an ass. there is an edit button use it!. Is the ass way of saying it. See you could of just said "hey man why did you triple post there is an edit button at the bottom for that. See how much more polite that sounds.
Cant Uderstand Normal Thinking= CUNT kinda cute huh.

TM
06-27-2007, 03:25 PM
I could of said "Your a cunt for triple posting" but know I said "there is a edit button, use it" you obviously deserved the first one.

Ek0mst0p1
06-27-2007, 03:31 PM
I could of said "Your a cunt for triple posting" but know I said "there is a edit button, use it" you obviously deserved the first one.

K your right i read my post i never said i was sorry for the consecutive post or anything. But look this is stupid i apologize for not using the edit and MORE IMPORTANTLY I AM SORRY I RESPONDED VERY RUDE. I could have worded that better or not said anything i am willing to just say fuck it and sorry. Alright now with that said (i'm not being a smart ass) How do people just come up with theorys with no facts if you look at shit with an ounce of logic you can see alot of theorys are crap. I am not saying any of yours are crap just a general thing i noticed at gameFaqs

TM
06-27-2007, 03:53 PM
Because they are idiots.

Ek0mst0p1
06-27-2007, 04:32 PM
wait who are idiots gamefaqer or people with crap theories

TM
06-27-2007, 04:37 PM
People with crap theories.

Ek0mst0p1
06-27-2007, 04:40 PM
Oh cool i like game faq's way more reliable then pretty much anywhere. Not to mention there is a lot of info for older games like this one.

Jma22tb
05-04-2008, 07:16 PM
The release of Crisis Core throws a huge monkey wrench into the equation there's no question about it. Playing through the game changes quite a bit about the way things are in Final Fantasy VII and in Advent Children. I'll give a take on each caption taking all three parts (AC, CC, and FF7) into account. I have not played Dirge of Cerberus so I won't add anything from that into this.

Aeris' role in AC

Aeris going back to CC and through FF7 displays superhuman powers in a more 'good' way than Sephiroth, as close as the opposite to her as it gets. She 'communicates with the Planet,' a gift of all Ancients apparently, and that allowed her to know when her adopted mother's husband died in the game and how she knew when Zack died in CC even though she hadn't heard from him in 4 years. This leads me to believe she has an affinity to the Lifestream as a result of her being an Ancient/Cetra.

As far as whether or not spirits exist in this world, the presence of Zack in the flashes Cloud has and Sephiroth's use of the Lifestream in FF7 outside of his physical body shows that the Lifestream can be used in some capacity. I would not say that she is a 'spirit' but rather that her 'returning to the Planet' allows her soul to live on without a physical form and her descendence from the Cetra allows her to do great things from within the Planet for Cloud and probably whoever she wants. The difference between Sephiroth and Aeris' use of the Lifestream to me comes down to their respective descendence. Jenova wants to cripple the Planet and the Cetra want to defend it. You could say that the Lifestream is composed of those opposing forces and the neutral presence of humans and animals making up the majority of its composition.

Another area I think Aeris becomes a presence in is how Kadaj is run off from the church and Cloud's Geostigma is healed. There is evidence from FF7 that suggests that Jenova was sealed by a small group of Ancients that fought and defeated her roughly 2,000 years prior to the events of the Nibelheim reactor (the link between CC and FF7). Jenova is also attributed to a mass genocide of the Cetra as well, taking on human forms and infecting the people. Aeris probably learns this when communing with the Planet and may or may not learn about what Professor Gast had been discussing with Ilfalna, her mother, as recorded at Icicle Inn. Ilfalna talked about the battle with Jenova and how she was defeated as well as WEAPON. If anything, Aeris' ability to heal Cloud and how the Lifestream pocket heals Geostigma goes to reveal that the Cetra were the biggest threat to Jenova and to its infections/power. She might be taking on the role as the planet's defender as a Cetra with this just as she armed the Planet with Holy to combat Meteor in FF7. Her descendence from Cetra might not just let her talk to the Planet, but defend the Planet from anything that may harm it, chiefly Jenova or Jenova-infused remnants (Sephiroth, Kadaj, etc.) Aeris apparently becomes stronger in the Lifestream with time, considering how she did not have this presence in FF7. It might be a sign of her development.

The Wolf

Without playing CC, the Zack theory is silly. All Zack is in FF7 is the guy who Cloud takes on in his memories and the SOLDIER 1st class who Cloud gets the Buster Sword from. But when you play CC, the references at almost every location to Zack are wholly coinciding. Zack is not only a very powerful being in is own right during his lifetime, but, as discovered in CC, was injected with Sephiroth cells along with Cloud. Just as Sephiroth was able to use parts of Jenova and his 'clones' that CC explains, however indirectly, as people injected with Sephiroth cells, Zack may have been able to use a wolf avatar to come back into the world physically. My take on each sighting of the wolf.

Overlooking Midgar - Zack's employer Shinra and its SOLDIER Department essentially run his life for his entire adult life. From 17 years old on, he works for Shinra and the presence of his mentor's old sword makes the reference all too fitting. Add that to his mentor's nickname for him as 'Zack the puppy' for his lack of attention span and focus and even his hairstyle and the wolf avatar is almost a no-brainer. He's joining Cloud in looking back at where he met Aeris, served Shinra, and even the place where he left the world of the living. If you play through CC, the ending cutscene is enough to make watching that scene an emotional one, not just a cool panoramic shot of the ruins of Midgar.

Inside the Church - Zack met Aeris in the church the same way Cloud did and the place is probably extremely important to him. Zack is also very good friends with Cloud, which only a small part was shown in FF7. Maybe he goes to see him and his wife/girlfriend. Zack even kind of asked Cloud about Tifa in CC when they went to Nibelheim, so maybe he was checking up on Cloud and Tifa to see where they've moved toward.

The water in the Forgotten City - Unless I'm mistaken this was the pool that Cloud put Aeris in when she died or if its not could be another entry point into an underground aquifer underneath the city. Either way it's symbolic, assuming the wolf is Zack. Zack might be going to the place his love interest died and might be honoring her resting place. Cloud's phone plays his friends leaving messages and he might be remembering his friends and his phone that he used when he was in SOLDIER.

Cloud's mind - This could represent Zack helping Cloud once again. In CC, he essentially keeps an unconscious Cloud with him for a stretch of traveling from Nibelheim to Gongaga to Banora to Midgar, a very long stretch of the world. He protects Cloud many times and takes on a big brother role to him. Cloud's death in the explosion might have seen intervention not only from Aeris but Zack as well. Their entrance into Cloud's memory and the Lifestream essentially spitting him back out might suggest both believe Cloud has more to accomplish in his life past the events of AC.

Those who have played Crisis Core know that Zack was a humongous influence in Cloud's life and it cannot be underestimated how much it influences him. See my themes at the bottom for more explanation. It's safe to say though that after you play CC and if you accept the wolf as Zack, you'll see it as much more than just some random wolf that makes a few appearances.

Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz's origin

It all goes back to Reunion. This ultimately was Hojo's attempt to find Sephiroth's body and maybe reanimate him. Sephiroth is, after all, Hojo's son and it could be very possible that the black cloaked people in FF7 were just some of the subjects of this experiment. Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz were obviously much stronger than the black cloaked people, probably just lower tier SOLDIER/Shinra army members or even normal people. My guess at their origin is that Hojo was attempting to create a new version of Sephiroth and created those three, flawed failures that weren't anywhere close. How he did this is totally uncertain. Every Jenova-infused figure in FF7 had parents (Genesis and Angeal from CC, and Sephiroth). Could Hojo have done what he did to Lucretia to other women? (Inject J cells into them and get them pregnant) As the head of the Shinra Science Department he would have more than enough resources to do so. The thing with Lucretia though is that she was brilliant, a scientist for Shinra. Kadaj and Co.'s mother was probably much less promising a mother for a recreated Sephiroth and their births were inconsequential in comparison. Their fraternal relationship supports a single mother not multiple ones (not just Jenova, the surrogate human 'test' mother). Their task in the experiment probably changed when Cloud awakened Sephiroth with the Black Materia, which Hojo did not expect at all. Their goal manifested in AC to reawaken Sephiroth on their search for 'Mother'.

My best guess is that they were born to a human mother and father that were both injected with Jenova cells as test subjects for Hojo's Reunion experiment before the events of FF7.

Sephiroth's Goal

Sephiroth is portrayed not just as the guy who finds out he was a test subject in a freak experiment that wants to punish the world in CC. He had two close friends, Genesis and Angeal, and finds out that their births had something to do with 'Ancient cell injection' and ultimately finds out that Jenova cells were the culprit to their births as well as his. Just imagine that; your best friends are both experiment subjects and your entire life was created essentially in a test tube. That would make anyone go crazy. Sephiroth learns that Jenova was the force that brought the Cetra to their knees and claims Jenova strongly as his mother. Add that to the fact that Jenova possessed otherworldly strength and intelligence and Sephiroth's abilities are superhuman as well and you've got yourself the most powerful single force in the Planet's history.

Sephiroth was born from Hojo and Lucretia, both subjects injected with Jenova, which explains his human form. Throughout FF7 he learns about the Black Materia and wants to cause a huge injury to the Planet, absorb the energy and become even more powerful. He fails and is left in the Lifestream again at the hands of Cloud.

With this background information setting up AC, Sephiroth's goal appears to be in three parts: punish the human race with sickness (geostigma) and its leader Cloud, reanimate his body through Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz by infusing them with concentrated Jenova cells, and to 'use this planet as a vessel to find a new home.'

By punishing the human race, he is infecting its children with Geostigma. The targets were almost entirely children probably for two purposes: to plant a seed for more Jenova influenced humans later on and for the second part of punishing the human race: punishing its champion, Cloud. The orphans infected are all under his care and he becomes pretty depressed by everything going on, likely blaming himself for it to some degree along with the incredible guilt he carries on his shoulders. I think Sephiroth plans for the fight with Cloud by infecting him with Geostigma and using its effect on the orphans to lower Cloud's spirits so he can kill him, the only real obstacle between him and his larger goal, easier.

The second part is using Yazoo, Kadaj, and Loz to find a piece of Jenova and using its higher concentration to reanimate his body. Cloud's reawakening of Sephiroth in FF7 required a very powerful source of power in the Black Materia to bring him back to life. This in mind, Jenova's cellular structure appears to be what Sephiroth has to do to come back to life again. This search is kind of like a Voldemort-esque use of puppets to find the source of his rebirth.

The vessel bit he says to Cloud before he fights him might be his larger goal of getting the hell out of dodge as quickly as possible. Maybe he realizes that Aeris and Cloud will be too strong a counterinfluence to fully take over this Planet and he wants to try another one. If he can get out of Gaia he can do what Jenova did 2,000 years ago and attempt to claim a planet for his own.

Jenova's Headshot

Jenova's box was slightly cut in the Rufus/Kadaj fight and Kadaj hangs on to the rest of it. Kadaj then uses the rest to reanimate Sephiroth since the portion is apparently a concentrated enough part to allow that to happen.

Orphan's Role in the Movie

The orphans are the primary target of the Geostigma probably because they are all under the care of Cloud and they could be affected enough to become Jenova-infused Sephiroth-like remnants if they're infected for a long period of time. I don't see their role with Bahamut as consequential because Kadaj uses Materia to summon it. Their role IMO is to provide an obstacle to Cloud to me. They slow him down in the Forgotten City and provide a problem for Tifa and Cloud when Kadaj summons Bahamut. It's part of my guess at Sephiroth's goal to punish the human race to mess with Cloud and possibly to gain more power over time through the children's prolonged Jenova infection. They do become stronger by that part of the movie as well, with Tifa being unable to move Denzel at one point.

What it all means in the plot

I think that Sephiroth's three-pronged goal was to bring Cloud to a state of depression by infecting him and the orphans in his care, while empowering Jenova remnants Kadaj and Co., created likely by Hojo prior to the events of FF7 as part of 'Reunion', to find a Jenova sample that, when combined with Kadaj, will reanimate Sephiroth. At this point, Sephiroth will kill a mentally weakened Cloud, whose orphans and illness cause self-doubt and a physical weakening, leave the planet and attempt to take over a more promising, less resistant one.

Cloud does not falter, however. Aeris' continuing influence by healing his Geostigma and inspiring him along the way, Cloud's friends helping him realize his strength, and Zack's more hidden influence with the wolf form at helping him further realize his past, all combine to bring Cloud to even higher levels of power. Remember, Cloud needed his friends to defeat Sephiroth's new form at the end of FF7 before winning a duel with Sephiroth's human form at the end. Now, Cloud possesses otherworldly abilities that he did not have in FF7. Motorcycle fighting ability, unbelievable leaping ability and even the capacity to fly with enough physical strength to cut through parts of the Shinra building. This all leads to being able to fight and defeat Sephiroth all by himself without the influence of Materia. By the end of AC he is stronger physically than Sephiroth ever was.

It's essentially Sephiroth trying to get revenge against Cloud and the human race while hoping to obtain the kind of power Jenova had in using a planet's power to obtain a new one, with Cloud rising even higher to the occasion as a full-fledged one man army that defeats Sephiroth by himself as well as keeping the collateral damage from Kadaj and Co. to a minimum while saving the orphans and the world for that matter.

This leads me to a few broader arcs between all three stories of CC, FF7 and AC

Cloud and Sephiroth's Link

Cloud and Sephiroth are both symbolic and the representatives to what I would call the three forces in the world of FF7: The Cetra (Aeris), Humanity (Cloud and Zack), and Jenova (Sephiroth).

Cloud kills Sephiroth and thwarts his apocalyptic plans twice, each more impressive than the last. Cloud looks up to Sephiroth as a hero when he leaves for SOLDIER, and Sephiroth kills just about everyone he grew up with. Cloud gets him back and avenges their deaths, Tifa and Zack's near death, and is inspired through the betrayal by his idol.

When Cloud and Zack are in the Shinra mansion, as revealed by CC, they are exposed to concentrated Mako energy for four full years and injected with Sephiroth cells to boot. A very interesting bit of information becomes apparent when one of the antagonists, Professor Hollander, describes cloud as 'the last pure sample of S cells in the world,' S cells being Sephiroth cells.

This bit really explains Cloud's growing development physically. In CC, he is as weak as it gets. Pathetic really. He gets knocked down by this Professor Hollander like a toy and is easily fatigued and sickly. In FF7, he is physically fit and becomes stronger as the game goes on. In AC, he is unbelievably powerful and a Sephiroth-like presence in terms of his physical prowess. 'The last pure sample of S Cells' might be representative of the new power he obtains through this exposure to Mako and Sephiroth cell injection along with his inner drive to defend his friends, their memories and do what's right.

This link doesn't just make Cloud considerably stronger, but gives Sephiroth a power over him in FF7. The mysterious voice in his head is Cloud's former self trying to talk to him throughout the game, trying to get this 'new Cloud' identity to stop living the lie before it's too late. This S cell link gives Sephiroth a glimpse into what's going on as shown most fully at the events in the Northern Crater. Sephiroth realizes that Cloud's memory is completely distorted and that Cloud believes he's Zack. He uses that, Cloud's insecurity, and his logic to convince Cloud that he's just a clone like the others Hojo made for the Reunion. Cloud accepts this as truth and gives Sephiroth the Black Materia. This becomes a blessing for Sephiroth and a pretty good one at that. Sephiroth comes back to life and only after Cloud realizes who he is with Tifa does he stop him.

The link between the two happens within the events of the game and movie and through their physical bodies as well.

Zack's Effect on FF7 and AC

Zack is highlighted primarily in CC and his influence continues through both stories.

The most important influence is his friendship to Cloud. Zack is like a brother to Cloud after seeing the events of CC play out, and the way Cloud acts in FF7 is an adjusted version of Cloud using the high energy, cocky and natural leadership of Zack's persona. Cloud basically becomes an extended version of Zack for the better part of FF7. How he's able to do this is probably a combination of the memory loss created by the four year exposure to Mako energy, his desire to be the hero he always wanted to be, and his memory of the hero he is inspired by in Zack, whom he emulates as Zack's 'living legacy' which Zack tells him he is in his dying words. Cloud repeats the words like he accepts it as truth, which might be what turns him into the 'new Cloud' at the start of FF7 and throughout the game. It fools Tifa because she doesn't recognize Cloud's new personality but remembers him from their past, and Aeris because he acts so much like Zack but he's not. Tifa remembers Zack from the Nibelheim incident but can't ever say it in front of Cloud until she is forced to in Cloud's reawakening. Aeris probably never learns of Cloud's past until she becomes a part of the Lifestream. There she is reunited with Zack and learns about Zack's role in Nibelheim and how Cloud acts so much like him and knows what went on. This isn't even counting how be basically becomes SOLDIER's right arm for the better part of his adult life, with Sephiroth having the posterboy role with Zack doing the real work behind the scenes.

Zack's role with the Buster sword is also a lot deeper. The ginormous ass kicking sword becomes even more bad ass as a gift from his mentor Angeal and the 'symbol of my dreams and honor' that he passes on to Cloud.

Zack was, ironically, the only real hero in SOLDIER despite Sephiroth's cult following in Shinra and through the media as the most brilliant of all heroes. He lives the life of the iconic tragic hero, who touches everyone's lives in a positive way and had something brilliant going on with Aeris before he dies. He does Shinra's work for them, defeating Wutai in the war that gives them world control, but he never does anything immoral or cruel in CC and defeats a powerful entity in Genesis, the clone spawning host that becomes Shinra's foil in CC. In the end, Shinra pisses on Zack by having him do all their legwork, declaring him dead after he and Cloud stop Sephiroth before he gets started on his new aim at destroying the human race, and kill him after he, apparently without their knowledge, defeats the biggest threat left in the world to them in Genesis by himself.

He's Cloud's mentor, Aeris' love interest, and shortly interacts with Tifa as well as extensively with Shinra and Sephiroth. He saves the world by himself and opens the door for Cloud, setting forth the events of FF7, at his expense in service of a flawed entity of deceit and greed in the Shinra Electric Power Company. His influence is monumental in the story's big picture.

Cloud, the Most Powerful Force in FF7

The title is cheesy but look at what he basically is in terms of the influences he has.

He is aided many times by Aeris throughout the events and that cannot be discounted. He has the aid and power of the Cetra on his side, even in her death throughout AC.

He is inspired by his mentor and friend Zack in CC and the emotional exchange of the Buster Sword at the end leads him to live a life as a 'living legacy' of Zack throughout FF7 and lets him believe that he's the hero he wanted to be. However flawed, that inspiration kept him going even when he couldn't remember much besides what his name was and that he was in SOLDIER.

He possesses the power of Jenova and while the link gives Sephiroth the Black Materia, he still becomes ridiculously powerful and the roof to his physical potential is completely removed.

He kills Sephiroth, the closest thing to the Apocalypse in the FF7 world, not once but three times, each more impressive than the last. In CC, he kills Sephiroth as a total mortal, the sickly frail joke of a soldier in all his 'glory' by throwing Sephiroth into the bottom of the reactor by taking the sword Sephiroth IMPALED him with, removing it and sending Sephiroth flying. He, along with his friends, defeat Sephiroth's enhanced avatar and defeats a surprised Sephiroth one-on-one in FF7. In AC, he pulls off a spectacle for the ages by fighting in a ridiculously superhuman duel consisting of flying, cutting through walls, and keeping up with said apocalyptic demigod the whole way through and by basically slicing him into nothing with the last attack.

Cloud takes the power of all three 'forces' and defends the world with it. All while giving himself absolutely none of the credit and questioning his ability. It's poetic how opposite he is emotionally and in ability. He is so conflicted internally that it apparently makes him invincible to anything external. Nothing represents that more than the AC scene where Sephiroth stabs him in the heart and then Cloud lays the wood on him.

Well there you go. Phew!

That's my take on AC and the theory analysis

seph1r0th400
05-04-2008, 11:41 PM
OMG. I have serious problems faulting your thinking. It actually bring my namesake back from the 1-D villain he was in the film, and returns him to the calibur of his FFVII villainy. You sure your not Nomura-sama in disguise?

Just one minor thing about the JENOVA headshot. My take on that is that when the box was ruptured, most of the content was lost, leaving only a fraction of the material behind (hence Kadaj's scream in the church). The fact that only a little J-Material was used and Loz and Yazoo weren't involved in the reanimation, to me made Seph underpowerd.

I feel that if none of the J-material had been lost and L&Y had been involved in the mix, then Seph would have been far more powerful.

Jma22tb
05-05-2008, 10:48 AM
No idea who that is but thanks! :) This game and the movie are both so awesome I haven't really had time to look around for a forum to talk about it but this looks like just the place.

On Jenova, the reduced amount of Jenova may have weakened Sephiroth slightly but I think it has more to do with Cloud becoming a freakishly powerful being in AC than Sephiroth needing a few more Jenova cells. If the amount was reduced, it was still potent enough to turn Kadaj into Sephiroth. That's all Sephiroth probably wanted. As we saw in the battle between him and Cloud, he was plenty powerful enough, altering the weather, throwing multi story building debris around, etc. Cloud just ends up being too much for Sephiroth once again hehe. It does make it interesting though that the other two weren't involved though. I agree that it would be much different if all three were involved, but in the explosion on the highway they were incapacitated to a pretty serious degree. If the plan was to get that Jenova sample and get all three remnants enhanced, we might have seen an even more powerful Sephiroth. We will never know though hehe.

Yeah, after I played Crisis Core it made Sephiroth so much more than a crazy bad ass with a really cool sword who wants to kill everybody. He had really close friends and everything he knew about them, himself, and his Shinra manufactured 'hero' identity was flawed and horrifying. It would take a lot to want to destroy the human race and seeing that play out makes him even more personable. It's like he is completely alone in the world and just wants it to suffer like he did. What does he owe them? He spent his whole life serving them and doing Shinra's dirty work, while being told he was special and brilliant not knowing the truth. It would be hard not to go down that path.

One thing I was wondering though is whether or not it's possible for Jenova/Sephiroth to truly die. Sephiroth keeps finding ways to reanimate himself and Jenova's influence still exists within Cloud and probably several ex-SOLDIERs from Shinra among other former test subjects for Hojo. While Sephiroth and Jenova continue to exist within the Lifestream, they'll always have some presence in the world. We see a green, lush world with the Nanaki cutscene 500 years later, so I guess that assumes that at some point Jenova and Sephiroth are defeated for good but how? It looks like Cloud will keep fighting Sephiroth as many ways as he reanimates himself until there's nothing left to use. Maybe Sephiroth will wait until Cloud gets older and Cloud trains his son with Tifa (lol) to fight and he carries on the fight until that presence ends in the world.

Makes me wonder..

seph1r0th400
05-06-2008, 06:37 PM
Well i do agree on most of those points..

What im saying is while the amount of cells used was enough to bring back Sephiroth, i think that if Kadaj had used the entire container's worth and Loz and Yazoo were there, then Seph would have been more powerful. IMHO

and for a newbie you have made a very good impression

Jma22tb
05-08-2008, 09:58 PM
Thanks a lot I appreciate that :)

Yeah, that kind of looked like I was too zealous to prove my point in hindsight >.> My bad

Anyway,
I do want to add after watching Advent Children recently that Aeris and Zack were the ones talking when Cloud 'dies' after the battle with Sephiroth about him 'not having a place here'. It's kind of ambiguous since the only time you hear Zack talk is when Cloud has that flashback of him at his grave. It could be that both Zack and Aeris made the effort to bring Cloud back to life from the Lifestream, not just Aeris. Another way you can tell it's Zack in the conversation is that the same voice actor who does his voice in Crisis Core did his voice in AC.

Also, the line 'I said I'd live out both our lives' when Cloud reminisces at Zack's grave in AC is a LOT more meaningful after u play Crisis Core.

To throw it in there,
MAJOR CRISIS CORE SPOILER ALERT
When Zack dies, he tells Cloud he's his living legacy with an emotional passing on of the Buster Sword, just like when his mentor Angeal passed it on to him.

The significance to me from this is a fully-reformed Cloud remembering the memories that changed him so much after the experiments done on him by Hojo. Zack was his best friend before he died. You could just feel the remorse and burden he carries on his shoulders. This realization, which happens before he tells Aeris on the way to the Forgotten City that 'he wants to be forgiven', adds another dimension to what he wants to be forgiven for.

When you consider that Zack was his best friend before he died and his memory was so screwed up look at what he did inadvertedly; he pretended to have his SOLDIER rank which Zack worked so hard for, carried himself like Zack, hit on his love interest (depending on how much love u gave Aeris in your run with FF7), and let her die while enabling the man who killed her and almost killed Zack to control his mind along the way. Add that to the guilt he feels for Aeris' death and the shame he probably feels for letting Sephiroth control him, having Geostigma, not being there for his family and friends and who wouldn't feel the way Cloud does? Even saving the world and finishing off Sephiroth again isn't enough for him to feel close to good about himself.

I'm a fan of the TV show 24 as well and the only character I've seen carry as much pain and burden as Cloud in the events of CC/FF7/AC is the main 24 protagonist Jack Bauer, although Bauer carries much more than Cloud and in a present day, more relatable sense.

Still, when you add the Sephiroth cell 'removal of his ceiling' for his physical and mental potential, Mako energy exposure, and all this pain/motivation that drives him, you can see why something as minor like a 5 or 6 foot sword going through him, a gigantic Bahamut monster, or the bringer of the Apocalypse wouldn't stop him. The pain he deals with inside makes anything external seem welcome by comparison. I always thought that the guilt over Aeris' death was the prevailing source, but there's so much more to it.

The way that Zack element weaves into the story turns a kind of goofy redeeming of a pretty messed up but cool-looking guy who kicks a lot of ass into a truly deep and tragic in hindsight renewal of a tortured (in every sense of the word) being who saves the world again and at the end of the story finally feels like it's an accomplishment-because he finally realizes that it's appreciated by those he loves.

It's like Jack Bauer saving the world but without his wife dying or love interest going insane. It's like him going home to the love of his life and everything finally being alright after doing the right thing.

You can even look at FF7 when he gets out of the Lifestream in Mideel to see how he carries the burden. He doesn't give himself any pat on the back at all for being the only man in the world that was able to kill Sephiroth. He just talks about how messed up he is.

It's too bad he wasn't ever joking.

tralalala<3
06-28-2008, 05:20 AM
First up, Aerith!!! Alright, I think she helps the AVALANCHE group (Tifa, Cloud, Cid, etc) because she can do those magical things, right? And I think she could do that because she's powerful, and created the White Materia. Alright, she helps Cloud because she wants him to forgive himself..

Then..What was the next one again? The wolf?

Uhh, the wolf, I am not sure what role it plays there in Advent Children. But I do think it's role is to appear where Aerith appeared? Heehee. Just a guess.

Jenova's cells. Hmm, yes, the green cells did squirt out. But I think Kadaj cried because what he was looking forward to see was the head, or something like that. I think he didn't expect to see the cells, but he was expecting the body parts, of blah. I don't really know.. :[

Existance of Loz, Kadaj, and Yazoo, is a mystery for me, too. But hey, the three of them are hott. Heehee.


Orphans.. The orphans are there to show that kids are usually the ones affected by Geostigma. And most of them knows Aerith, too. "Onee-chan told us that you were here.."

I hope that helps, but if it didn't, forgive me!!!!!!! I just wanted to help!!! :(

Omaklise
07-02-2008, 07:43 AM
- When Cloud plunges into Bahamut’s plasma ball she helps him through.
- When Kadaj is about to blast Cloud to smithereens in the church Aeris summons her raincloud of anti-Jenova cells and scares him off. This also heals Cloud of the Geostigma.
- When Cloud begins his battle with Sephiroth, something Marlene says as the storm gathers brings up flashes of Aeris and I believe Aeris tries to help Cloud out in some way in that battle.
- Aeris helps guide Kadaj into the Lifestream by posing as his “mother” (Jenova) and then she proceeds to heal a whole lot of people with her anti-Jenova rain.
- When Cloud is killed or really messed up by Yazoo and Loz’s sacrificial explosion, Aeris resurrects him through the children.


Wow, she sure does a lot for a dead chick...

Poppouri
04-23-2009, 06:50 PM
My Theories to your questions:

spirit of the FF7 world: In the first part of the movie, a girl said it is a part of lifestream.

Aeris: When Aeris died, she became one with lifestream. But she is an ancient, and she had so many things to worry about down there, so she came back. But she had to have a time to get used to it. She practically is the planet and the lifestream at this point. That is why she does not, and do not need, a physical body; she already have one that's much better. Sephiroth NEEDS physical body to make an impact on the planet since he is living on unnaturally.
As to healing, it is both Aeris and Planet healing the wound, since they are one.
Zack is with Aeris because he was worried about Cloud.

Wolf: His inner insecurity. He is near the sword because that's where his guilt lies. He is looking at cellphone because it WAS his fear of interacting with others. He went away at the end because he understood and accepted others.

Three antagonists: They said that they were born from Jenova themselves in the movie. Therefore, it is not technically wrong to say that they are part of Sephiroth. Anyways, I think kadaje was shocked to see inside of the box because he saw the head was shot.
Also, these three said "Mother" when they died because they finally met their true mother. If you watch the Japanese version, you'll understand this, but one can easily assume that they have lost their "mother" and just was looking to be loved. That's why they wanted Jenova's head...they must have been infected with the cells more than others. And those cells cut the connection to the lifestream, and made them into Jenova's hands.
Aeris is playfully mad at the end because Three and Cloud met Aeris, the lifestream (the true mother) embodied, called her as mother.

Children: They are most close to lifestream and therefore more prone to jenova invading their body. And they are the future. SO, they are important. Also, three wanted them so that their jenova cells can be used to make them into an army to fight against the lifestream.

sefiroslionheart
05-19-2009, 09:12 PM
I think the wolf represents angeals spirit.
Dreams, pride and honor. it makes a little more sense.

As for original post, i know it was a while ago, but before people read it, Aeriths healing rain is supposed to heal the STIGMA, not jenova cells as stated in first post. but i cant blame original post coz it was a long time ago.
I STILL have to get myself the blu ray version, seriously, i know cloud and sephiroth fight with his one wing, and i wanna see it. As of yet, no youtube vids on that, i wonder why.....

Dranzera
05-27-2009, 05:33 AM
I believe that Kadaj cried out in pain when he saw the contents of that box, because he was surprised to see just the head of his "mother" there.

Enkidoh
05-27-2009, 05:52 AM
Okay....

I rarely go into rants, but hearing this same tired argument raised repeatedly here and elsewhere despite repeatedly proven to the contrary I finally couldn't take it anymore and felt compelled to speak up about this.

The wolf.. IS NOT Aeris! It's NOT Zack!! It's NOT Angeal! It's NO ONE!!!

It's a visual metaphor symbolizing the guilt Cloud carries over Aeris's death. Nothing more!

In case you STILL don't agree, refer to the tagline of this very Forum.

/end rant :mad:

ROKUSHO
05-27-2009, 05:43 PM
i thought it was just a wolf.

sefiroslionheart
06-06-2009, 07:09 PM
Enkidoh, i said it represents the dreams, pride and honor. I DID NOT SAY IT WAS ANGEAL. *sighs*
and if the wolf is the guilt, why is it still their long after he accepts that its happened when he stops baring the burden.

Enkidoh
06-07-2009, 12:53 AM
Cloud feels guilty over Aeris's death because he nearly killed her twice (through Sephiroth's manipulations of the Jenova cells inside him and his own fractured personality), firstly at the Temple of the Ancients after he gave the Black Materia to Sephiroth, and then on the altar at the Forgotten Capital. Because in the later instance Cloud managed to stop himself in the nick of time, is why Sephiroth took over and finished the deed.

Hence, Cloud feels guilty that he didn't do enough to protect her, even though Aeris herself tells him in his dreams that she doesn't blame him for it. And this guilt is given a visual symbol in the form of the wolf - which doesn't disappear until the very end when he finally lets go of this guilt and accepts the past, and finally stops turning his back on his friends and realizes that 'he's not alone'. This is explained on the bonus 'making of' film that came with the DVD release.

I'm sorry if I sounded a little harsh in my previous post, it's just repeating this argument endlessly is becoming irrelevant.

sefiroslionheart
06-07-2009, 04:21 PM
Sephiroth wasnt their, it was either jenova (which seems most likely) Or one of the reminants of sephiroth.

I really think that SE have become extremely poor at getting their point across without directly saying so, and whats worse is when they do explain it, you think huh, wtf that doesnt make sense at all. like with what u just said, the wolf shouldnt have appeared when cloud got killed (yet again) and then returned in aeriths church.
Whatever it is pointless, so many interpretations and each one better than "guilt". Honestly if it was guilt, itd be far better if cloud was stabbed in the side with the wolf, then re-acted to that.

execrable gumwrapper
06-13-2009, 08:24 AM
The fuck? That would just cause more confusion.

And I remember reading that Nomura added the wolf because it looked cool all CGI'd out. Which wouldn't surprise me since the entire movie was added as a "hey, that looks cool" reason.

sefiroslionheart
07-06-2009, 08:31 PM
Agreed on that one, it was a good few millions worth of crap, but hey, it was a better movie than "spirits within"

MalLionheart
09-18-2009, 08:50 AM
Just my thoughts:
1. She's a spirit, as is Zack. Helping Cloud from beyond the grave. I believe the rain is Aerith's final Limit Break from the game. As to why she didn't do this nifty tricks, she was busy guiding souls to the lifestream when she got made "Maiden of the Lifestream" or something like that. It's a book I think, though I'm unsure if it's still canon. She helped Tifa and Cloud out of the lifestream though, despite it not being mentioned in game.

2. I dunno. Lonliness, guilt etc

3. I read somewhere that they are all a Remnants of sephiroth
Loz = Sephiroth's Strength
Yazoo = Sephiroth's Cool Demeanor
Kadaj = Sephiroth's Hatred and Rage
Sephiroth made them somehow in one of the On the Way to a Smile novels.

4. To become one with the planet and become a god. I'm pretty sure he'd stopped caring about Jenova by the end of the game and just used it as a pawn. I can't recall exactly.

5. I don't think the gunk was all there was. I'm pretty sure the head was definately there. I just think seeing a head in a box messed with him a bit. I mean if your saw your mothers head in a box, wouldnt you freak out? I know it's not the same, but still...

Darth Revan
10-04-2009, 07:11 AM
.... This is so old... and so very, very sad...

Over analyzing a movie like this... Makes me wonder what the future holds...

It's been repeatedly discussed numerous times in numerous threads...

Let it go.

puddles123
10-05-2009, 08:38 PM
@Xiahou Dun -

This thread may be very old, but wouldn't you rather he air his opinions here instead of making a new thread about it? It seems a little silly for you to tell him that it isn't worth bringing up when the very thread he is posting in is precisely about what he is talking about. If he made a new thread about it, then I would be more behind you.

As for his opinions on the deeper themes behind the movie, I can't really answer them, as I pretty much exhausted all my energy and ideas on the movie with my original post within this thread four years ago. Also, what is wrong with overanalyzing a movie like this? While most people regard the movie as crap, it certainly did lay ground for new questions to arise, whether you believe those questions to be worth your time or not. Please don't berate this new guy simply because you find the subject material to be dull and old. To people who have just found this forum, it is not.

Darth Revan
10-05-2009, 09:17 PM
@Xiahou Dun -

This thread may be very old, but wouldn't you rather he air his opinions here instead of making a new thread about it? It seems a little silly for you to tell him that it isn't worth bringing up when the very thread he is posting in is precisely about what he is talking about. If he made a new thread about it, then I would be more behind you.

FFVII AC has been discussed to death numerous times in this thread section already. It's done with. Why keep going on and on and on about something which is over. Also, my post was not aimed at any one in particular Puddles123, it was a general target to the thread in general.


As for his opinions on the deeper themes behind the movie, I can't really answer them, as I pretty much exhausted all my energy and ideas on the movie with my original post within this thread four years ago. Also, what is wrong with overanalyzing a movie like this? While most people regard the movie as crap, it certainly did lay ground for new questions to arise, whether you believe those questions to be worth your time or not. Please don't berate this new guy simply because you find the subject material to be dull and old. To people who have just found this forum, it is not.

Have I said anywhere that the movie is crap? FFVII AC is a good movie, though there are some things in it which imo, are more fantastical than what FF should be. A: The final fight against Bahamut. B: Cloud and Sephiroth flying around. I could go into more detail, but can't be bothered tbh.

Also, the MAIN THING I am sick to death of hearing...


Originally posted by Sefiroslionheart

I think the wolf represents angeals spirit. Dreams, pride and honor. it makes a little more sense.

The wolf has already been discussed numerous times before in this forum sub section.


Originally posted by Hynad in the closed thread 'Is Aerith The Wolf?'

Here is a a part of the Reunion Files in question. A question was asked about the wolf to the Directors of the film and here is the official answer:

Quote:
*Q: What does the wolf that appears at Zack's place of death, Aerith's church,
and the City of the Ancients symbolize?

*A: It's a symbol of Cloud's guilt and regret. As a result of being unable to
do anything to save Aerith and Zack, he blamed himself for their deaths. The
symbolism of the wolf also works in regard to the expression "lone wolf," as
Cloud has chosen to live away from others while he awaits death from
Geostigma. Continuing this line of symbolism, Cloud wears symbols of a wolf's
head and his motorcycle is named "Fenrir," the name bore by Loki's wolf child
in Norse Mythology.

I think that answers that whole 'Who is the wolf?' question idiots have been asking, yet they don't want to acknowledge the truth.

puddles123
10-05-2009, 10:27 PM
What I'm just trying to say is that the guy is new, he hasn't seen all these theories and stuff that you and I are sick of. Therefore I think it slightly rude to call his arguments old, lame, and irrelevant because, from his point of view, that could not be furthest from the case.

Darth Revan
10-05-2009, 10:32 PM
What I'm just trying to say is that the guy is new, he hasn't seen all these theories and stuff that you and I are sick of. Therefore I think it slightly rude to call his arguments old, lame, and irrelevant because, from his point of view, that could not be furthest from the case.

Then is it so hard to scroll back through this sub section to read other posts? Why spam up the thread asking the same tired shit over and over again?

Solvonian
12-11-2009, 08:14 AM
Sephiroth was not killed early in FFVII. He was thrown into the Mako reactor and was frozen i the life stream. FFVII Crisis Core tells more about that incident

stonythegreat
06-22-2010, 12:13 AM
Let's get Jenova out of the way first. Jenova is an alien, the "Calamity From the Sky". She is a powerful being that uses worlds as her spaceship. No real explanation is given to why she does this aside from to steal the lifeforce of planets. Jenova landed on Gaia and caused the Northern Crater. If we noticed from the game, this exposed the lifestream. This is likely where she corrupted the lifestream the first time. (We also see when Aerith gets her first Limit Break the story of Jenova. She came from the sky, tainted the planet, was fought, and attempted to summon Meteor to destroy the planet.

Jenova uses the life of the planet to control it. In the game, Sephiroth never really mentions the Promisedland except in conjunction with the Centra. The Centra as we all should know are the ones who kept Jenova from taking the planet. We know Aerith was a decendant of the Centra.

Her death and release into the lifestream was a way for her to become one with the lifestream. As we see from the ending, she can control the lifestream. This is how she stopped Sephiroth's attempt at summoning the ultimate evil magic Meteor. This would mean that she can effectively control the lifestream.

The very last scene from the game is Aerith. Everyone likes to say that this was not meant to symbolize her using the lifestream, but why wouldn't it be? It would be the most logical explaination. This means that she can manifest herself through the lifestream. Anyone touched by the lifestream (Like Cloud and Sephiroth) should be able to see her. Since when people die on Gaia, their spirit goes to the lifestream, that would mean that Zack could be present with Aerith. Since a spirit is the spiritual form of a person, they can take shape in visions produced by Aerith. I would gather if Aerith can manifest herself in the lifestream physically (As Holy), that Jenova can probably do the same thing. She is in fact part of the lifestream as well. Which is why Aerith mentions that the world is sick because of Jenova.

Knowing these things, we know that anybody who can control the life of a planet (I.E. Aerith and Jenova), they can manifest themselves physically in a way or spiritually. Since Jenova must come in contact with a person to become a part of them, then that would mean that anybody who was infused with Mako is partially infused with Jenova since Mako is a type of energy made from the lifestream, just more condensed.

So, we know that Cloud and Sephiroth were touched by Mako. Sephiroth however was taken a step further in actually having cells from Jenova injected. Instead of a sort of taint or altered portion of lifestream energy, she would be more like a parasite within Sephiroth. This would mean that he is a host that follows commands of Jenova. In the game however, Sephiroth only developes this bond when in Nibelheim. This could be because Jenova's physical form was there. Since she was surrounded by Mako, this could have been keeping her active, but subdued like a comma victim. They never say that she was killed, just defeated. When Sephiroth got close enough to her, she might have been able to link with Sephiroth and transfer herself into his infected cells and complete the symbyosis.

We also notice at the Mako Reactor portion of the game that when you look into the pods, there are humanlike beings in there. They are being infused with Mako and are transforming into a new being. Cloud underwent this process to a lesser extent. Since we know that Mako is formed from the lifestream, this would mean that Cloud is infected by lifestream tainted by Jenova. This would probably be one of the better reasons why Cloud and Sephiroth are refered to as brothers. Since no other characters were presented as being part of this experiment, we don't know if there are anymore.

Moving on, we see that there are numbered cloaked figures that speak of "The Reunion". I don't exactly know how to explain this, but the mention of the Reunion in AC would suggest that this moment is when the reunion is going to happen. So could this mean that these cloaked figures are geostigma infected, or are they forms of Jenova infected people to a further extent? Remeber, when in Midgard, there is a guy in a pipe and a guy outside that said his brother one day became like this. This would mean that these cloaked figures are infected by Jenova in some way. They were also making their way to Nibelheim Reactor like Sephiroth did when he became evil.

These three spirits (Kadaj etc. etc.)could be those who actually made it to the reactor. We don't really know. That's my only guess. They speak a lot of the reunion like the cloaked figures did. Nothing would disuade them from their quest to make it happen either.....just like the cloaked figures.

This brings me to geostigma. When the children are standing around the statue, they are acting like the cloaked figures from the actual game. They are there, and Bahamut is summoned because they think Jenova is hidden under the statue. This could be true, but I don't see how. The children being drawn to Jenova like the cloaked figures being drawn to the reactor (Where the rest of Jenova's body was) could be liked. Who knows.

Aerith as we know used the lifestream to defeat meteor. The scene at the church was just a manifistation of her. She is the only one to be able to use Holy (The ultimate white magic) so this could be a manifistation of that. I believe Aerith's motivation and role is to completely defeat Jenova. However, since there are so many that could have possibly be infected by Jenova, this is hard. The healing rain could possibly be the destruction of the Mako manifistation of Jenova. Again, who really knows. It healed everybody infected with geostigma, so I figure that's what this means.

The trio of villains here could be one of many things. Pod people, people infected with Jenova cells (Hojo infected himself, so there must be a supply somewhere. So who knows what he did in the four years since the Sephiroth incident?) or spirits. I would not say spirits because they are actually a physical manifestation. I would tend to believe they are clones or infected with Jenova cells and underwent the same connection as Sephiroth did.

The connection made by Kadaj and Jenova's parts would suggest that he was an incomplete form of Sephiroth. Look, he was the leader of the three. He was obviously the one that was going to do this anyways. This makes me really think that Kadaj was the clone and not the other two. Perhaps he was controlling the others like Jenova did Sephiroth.

Only when Kadaj melded with the cells, did he become Sephiroth. This would tell me that Sephiroth could not be a total human, but a human version of Jenova. This draws me back to the Mako reactor incident when Sephiroth went crazy. Jenova was not dead. She was in some sort of comma and obviously communicating with Sephiroth. Sephiroth was a vessel for Jenova I believe. As was Kadaj a shell like Sephiroth and needed Jenova to become complete. This is my belief.

This leads me to believe that Kadaj had no complete Jenova cells. He was just Sephiroth without the cells probably infected with Mako. Since obviously Mako infection is different than cell infection (Hint: Cloud was infected, but not controlled like Sephiroth), Kadaj was most likely an incomplete clone that sought the cells to become whole again. The burning desire to find mother was the only thing the clone was missing.

Sephiroth becomes whole again. He mentions that Cloud could join him, but does not refer to him as brother. Could this mean that this is more Jenova and less Sephiroth? I'd say so. Sephiroth does not mention using the world himself as a vessel to surf to new worlds, he only mentions that he wanted to find the Promisedland so him and mother could be truly reunited. I think this in the game was the culmination of what happened in the movie. That Jenova finally became as complete and in control as she needed and Sephiroth was her new identity.

I believe this because Sephiroth's motive changes from finding and uniting with mother in the lifestream and sailing the universe with her to using the planet himself. I do not believe that Jenova is gone because before Sephiroth explodes into feathers, he says that he will never be a memory. This could also suggest a few things.

1) Jenova cells are completely gone, so Sephiroth can never return, but the infected lifestream will never fully disappear.

2) Everything was cleansed, but Sephiroth will always live in Cloud's nightmares.

3) Sephiroth still believes Cloud is a clone, therefore he is Sephiroth. (Which can't be true because Jenova was never able to take Cloud's body)

4) That Sephiroth is not gone, just hiding in the lifestream. He was a living thing, so he would essentially become part of the lifestream if killed.

Kadaj being taken at the end could mean that he was cleansed of Jenova. Since the tainted lifestream could have been a contributing factor to his creation, he would see Jenova if she took over. However, Jenova could look like Aerith when Kadaj is cleansed of Jenova. I would like to believe this is the reason. I say this because Kadaj knew who Jenova was. He knew that she was part of the planet. So this would suggest he was part of the lifestream, or infused with the tainted lifestream. The presence of Jenova taint could have clouded his view of the true mother of the planet.

I don't know. I'll add more if I see fit. These are wild theories based off facts from the game and the movie. Who knows what Square was thinking when they made the game. They might have revealed further points by introducing all these offshoots. I don't think they are done, because there are still way to many unknown factors. I hope we do see a definitive conclusion that answers all the FF7 questions we have.

That's the brilliant thing about leaving things open though. Maybe they will see these type of posts or completely make up the fillers for these holes. Wouldn't it be nice if some of your theories were used to make a complete saga? I just want a complete view from the Battle of Jenova and the Centra, all the way to the end....where ever that may be.

superlusher
07-03-2010, 12:41 PM
Kadaj being taken at the end could mean that he was cleansed of Jenova. Since the tainted lifestream could have been a contributing factor to his creation, he would see Jenova if she took over. However, Jenova could look like Aerith when Kadaj is cleansed of Jenova. I would like to believe this is the reason. I say this because Kadaj knew who Jenova was. He knew that she was part of the planet. So this would suggest he was part of the lifestream, or infused with the tainted lifestream. The presence of Jenova taint could have clouded his view of the true mother of the planet.

When the aeris/jenova takes kadaj at the end, he calls her mother, and she responds saying 'why does everyone keep thinking im their mother today' (or something to that end. so i think it is actually aeris and not jenova. but acording to your theories, she does no doubt heal him of the jenova infection.



but then a discussion into ff7 philosopy could go on for years. we may never find the answers in our lifetime...

Darth Revan
07-03-2010, 06:00 PM
stonythegreat, for your first post welcome. Second, thread necromancy is frowned upon. Check the date of the last post before posting. Third, your theory while it does have some good points remember that FFVII was made by a completely different team than the ones who made FFVII AC, so there are some discrepancies here and there.

Everyone has a theory about everything to do with FFVII/FFVII AC but ultimately it's up to SE to release any concrete thought into it, but honestly I think it should be taken as what it is. A movie to watch and enjoy, instead of examining everything with a magnifying glass.

topopoz
07-04-2010, 10:04 AM
Amazing to see that there's still people making theories about FF7.

Smarty
07-04-2010, 11:21 AM
Amazing to see there's still people who care about making theories about FF7.

Darth Revan
07-04-2010, 08:57 PM
Amazing to see there's still people still making theories about a game 13 years old, and is over with.

Galadín Nimcelithil
10-03-2010, 03:55 AM
Amazing to see that this thread is still open.

Aniki
10-03-2010, 04:46 AM
Amazing... simply amazing.

CC
10-03-2010, 08:38 AM
I say it's harmless though; a mod will decide its fate.

Galadín Nimcelithil
10-03-2010, 08:47 PM
I say it's harmless though; a mod will decide its fate.

Mod: You do know, you sorry excuse for a thread, that I hold your fate in my hands????
Thread: PLEASE don't close me, I beg of thee!!!!!!!
Mod: Humph! And what could you possibly do to keep me from doing just that?
*Thread quivers*
Mod: SPEAK gods damn you, if you wish to convince me other wise!!!!!!
Thread: I....I....I ....cccccc....couldddd..try to bbbbbe more inttteresssting!
Mod: Bah! Impossible! No thread named 'Enormous FF7 AC Theory Analysis (Major Spoilers)' could ever become interesting!!! It wasn't interesting 13 yrs ago, so why would anybody find it interesting now???
*Thread hangs its head in shame, and shrugs its shoulders in defeat*
Thread: You're right you know.
Mod: Of course I am! I am ALWAYS right. Now I shall end this pathetic excuse for a thread!


And that's the show!!!!!!! :P

CC
10-04-2010, 08:29 AM
ENCORE!!!

Darth Revan
10-05-2010, 06:55 AM
I play this card:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Galadín Nimcelithil
10-05-2010, 09:12 AM
*Galaroval takes a bow*

*Thread lies face down and bloodied on the ground
DH shows card in previous post.
Thread is no more*

Darkest Gunblade
02-11-2011, 08:24 AM
And then *gasp*, *shock*, *horror*, (and a little)*disgust*, we see Aerith coming over and bringing it back to life. !!!!!!!

Darth Revan
02-11-2011, 04:56 PM
Darkest Gunblade, you're a new member so I'll cut you some slack. However, do not revive dead threads. This thread hasn't been active for 4 months. PROTIP: look at the date of the last post, before posting. If the last post is within a month, ok. Also, if you desire to discuss the thread, please add something worthwhile instead of:


And then *gasp*, *shock*, *horror*, (and a little)*disgust*, we see Aerith coming over and bringing it back to life. !!!!!!!

As that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

Galadín Nimcelithil
02-23-2011, 06:19 AM
Going for Mod are we Revan?

Go for it. Divide et Imperat!
Don't worry, Muffin will cover your tracks.