PDA

View Full Version : There's a rather annoying trend as of late on my server, curious if it's everywhere.



Marceline
07-13-2004, 08:22 PM
There's a sort of rule in our linkshell about leveling you sub- people generally don't get out and out kicked, but they do get teased about it by a few members.

At any rate, a few days ago, someone left the linkshell because of this. He ( a level 29thf/lvl4mnk) said that it was a person's choice whether or not they wanted a leveled sub, and he didn't want to level his.

Since this, It seems like every single newer player I've seen has an underleveled sub. Half the people at Qufim have subs at 8 or lower- when I was leveling, no one even wanted to invite someone with a slightly weird sub.

Not sure I really understand this phenomenon at all- I don't see the point of going through the sub-job quest if you don't plan on taking advantage of your sub-job, and I don't understand why people have suddenly stopped caring about it in general.

MogKnight
07-13-2004, 11:59 PM
I don't see it happen at Cerberus as much... if at all. Normally whenever I search, I find a lot of people already at their Sub Max.

I dunno, it's a shame to not level up your subjob to maximize your main job capabilities, especially since it's highly needed to get anywhere with anyone at the later stages. However, Drakenhawk did see a BLM in Qufim at 24 but no sub. Damn shame I tell ya. :(

Wattson
07-14-2004, 06:51 AM
I'm 99% positive this is everywhere. Most call them "PS2 n00bs," but =\.
I'm one of the people who regularly makes fun of people with underleveled/crap subjobs..

DL
07-14-2004, 09:13 AM
Most of these people probably think ish okie to just -have- the subjob, and don't necessarily think they need to level it. At least, that's what Typo gets from most of them when he asks.

Merl
07-16-2004, 12:04 AM
I put the hammer down tonight and told my LS members with underleveled subs they had to have it to 15 by mid-night or be kicked.

They had a week, and were dicken around with Kazham Keys and other non-sense.

One of them actually got to 25 as a War in Qufim sans-sub ><

Strife-x
08-02-2004, 01:48 PM
ive never noticed it as a "trend" but its pretty funny when people are like a 30war/10thf, i was actually a war with a lvl 5 mnk sub all the way to lvl 30, i was lazy and didnt want to lvl mnk cuz well, mnk is gay, but now that im a ninja i lvl my thf sub to the max, i learned my errors, so can everyone else!

Wattson
08-02-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Strife-x
ive never noticed it as a "trend" but its pretty funny when people are like a 30war/10thf, i was actually a war with a lvl 5 mnk sub all the way to lvl 30, i was lazy and didnt want to lvl mnk cuz well, mnk is gay, but now that im a ninja i lvl my thf sub to the max, i learned my errors, so can everyone else!

But your error is that THF is not an acceptable sub for NIN. It's WAR or nothing. =\


Originally posted by PlasmaTorture
I'm one of the people who regularly makes fun of people with underleveled/crap subjobs..

Marceline
08-02-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by PlasmaTorture
But your error is that THF is not an acceptable sub for NIN. It's WAR or nothing. =\

I agree that /WAR is pretty much the only way to go with Ninja, but I don't think that it should be.

There's actually -enmity stats on the Ninja AF. I can't imagine that it was designed for blink tanking and nothing else. =/

Evad D'Aragon
08-02-2004, 04:59 PM
Exactly, I agree with Ndi here. Ninjas weren't originally designed for tanking, they don't have half the abilities of a Paladin for that. All they have is Utsusemi, which doesn't even raise hate anyway... So, to me, Thief is very acceptable. Combined with the Thief's abilities, it can make a decent damage dealer but only at higher levels, but still. Although it's true they're probably more useful as tanks, but still not as nearly good as us Paladins...cough...cough...lol

Strife-x
08-03-2004, 11:07 AM
thats what i was saying, nin isnt suppose to be a tank, they just made it one, so i say its acceptable to sub thf with nin, most ppl say thats the best sub for nin cause the stats compliment each other, and besides, ive had my fill of tanking when i was a war, so its time to sit back and watch someone else tank, its my turn damnit! when will strife get his!

Wattson
08-03-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Evad D'Aragon
All they have is Utsusemi, which doesn't even raise hate anyway

To start off, I'm sorry, I'm not a NIN, I don't know ninjitsu names :x

They have the Blind/Paralyze/Slow ninjitsu, plus all the elemental ones, to keep hate quite easily. Plus they make my job easier that way <3.
Also, Utsusemi prevents them from getting hit. Getting hit makes your enmity go down. And they have Provoke, which, while it isn't amazing, still helps.

NIN might not've been "meant" to tank, but that's sure what they're best at. I'm sorry, but what does a /THF sub offer you? Stats? That's the last thing you should be looking for in a subjob.
Steal, gilfinder, treasure hunter, etc? Whatever, those don't help your party kill faster/live.
A critical hit every minute (Sneak Attack)? Whoop-de-doo.
Ability to give the main tank a little bit more hate (SATA)? Well, for one, that's at level 60. By then you won't get invites unless you are the main tank, plus DRK, MNK, WAR, THF, etc. all do more damage than you with SATA.
THFs job traits like increased evasion don't mean much to you when you're not tanking =\

A NIN/WAR, even if it isn't main tank, still has Provoke, Berserk, Warcry, Double Attack (with dual weild, that's sure to go off fairly often), and some useful Job Traits. Even if you are tanking, all of these help stick the hate on you.

Evad D'Aragon
08-03-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by PlasmaTorture


To start off, I'm sorry, I'm not a NIN, I don't know ninjitsu names :x

They have the Blind/Paralyze/Slow ninjitsu, plus all the elemental ones, to keep hate quite easily. Plus they make my job easier that way <3.
Also, Utsusemi prevents them from getting hit. Getting hit makes your enmity go down. And they have Provoke, which, while it isn't amazing, still helps.

NIN might not've been "meant" to tank, but that's sure what they're best at. I'm sorry, but what does a /THF sub offer you? Stats? That's the last thing you should be looking for in a subjob.
Steal, gilfinder, treasure hunter, etc? Whatever, those don't help your party kill faster/live.
A critical hit every minute (Sneak Attack)? Whoop-de-doo.
Ability to give the main tank a little bit more hate (SATA)? Well, for one, that's at level 60. By then you won't get invites unless you are the main tank, plus DRK, MNK, WAR, THF, etc. all do more damage than you with SATA.
THFs job traits like increased evasion don't mean much to you when you're not tanking =\

A NIN/WAR, even if it isn't main tank, still has Provoke, Berserk, Warcry, Double Attack (with dual weild, that's sure to go off fairly often), and some useful Job Traits. Even if you are tanking, all of these help stick the hate on you.

Woah, woah, woah...I didn't say Thief was a better sub than Warrior, I said it was just "acceptable" and you have repeated my saying when I said it's an okay damage dealer but only at higher levels...why do you bother replying if it's to repeat what I said but with different words ?

And...by the way, Dual Wield doesn't affect Double Attack in any way. They're two totally different things. Dual Wield works the same way as how the Monk attacks, big delay but always two strikes...Double Attack would only double that to four attacks once in a while, as if a Paladin would slice twice with his sword once in a while. Having Dual Wield won't make you do Double Attack more often, unless you didn't mean that but by reading your post if sure seems to mean that...

And no matter how skilled the Nin/War, they don't have enough abilites to raise Hate as easily than the Pld/War, all that Utsusemi allows is for it not to down go...Big difference, because if someone else nukes or heals too much and the Ninja can't raise hate, he'll lose it, whereas a Paladin can always raise hate even higher than others provided he has MP left...though I never said they weren't capable enough. They at least have the advantage of doing more damage than Paladins, and can still somewhat useful if they don't tank, unlike Paladins...which is sad, really, but understandable. If Paladins were also good damage dealers, they'd be gods :p

Wattson
08-03-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Evad D'Aragon


Woah, woah, woah...I didn't say Thief was a better sub than Warrior, I said it was just "acceptable" and you have repeated my saying when I said it's an okay damage dealer but only at higher levels...why do you bother replying if it's to repeat what I said but with different words ?

The stuff about anti-THF sub in my post was not really in response to your post. Yes, they can be "ok," but people desire DRGs more than NIN/THFs =\



And...by the way, Dual Wield doesn't affect Double Attack in any way. They're two totally different things. Dual Wield works the same way as how the Monk attacks, big delay but always two strikes...Double Attack would only double that to four attacks once in a while, as if a Paladin would slice twice with his sword once in a while. Having Dual Wield won't make you do Double Attack more often, unless you didn't mean that but by reading your post if sure seems to mean that...

My mistake, I thought double Attack works the same as the en- spells, where they do happen twice with dual weild.



And no matter how skilled the Nin/War, they don't have enough abilites to raise Hate as easily than the Pld/War, all that Utsusemi allows is for it not to down go...Big difference, because if someone else nukes or heals too much and the Ninja can't raise hate, he'll lose it, whereas a Paladin can always raise hate even higher than others provided he has MP left...though I never said they weren't capable enough. They at least have the advantage of doing more damage than Paladins, and can still somewhat useful if they don't tank, unlike Paladins...which is sad, really, but understandable. If Paladins were also good damage dealers, they'd be gods :p

For one, nobody is going to be healing too much with a NIN tank because they aren't taking damage. If someone is nuking too much at the start of the battle then they're a bad BLM. Generally nuking at all at the start is bad =\.
In any party situation, all that should be happening at teh start of a battle is possibly curing the puller, main tank vokes, debuffs start being cast, and melee attack. Debuffs are the only part of that that really generates an amount greater than 'voke of hate, but what does that matter if the NIN is the one using the debuffs?
Not to mention that the NIN can also Warcry at higher levels to get more hate, use Berserk to get more hate, attacks fast enough to get more hate than PLD's attacks, and can participate in the renkei.
Post 37 (Utusemi Ni), parties with NIN main tanks don't even need a WHM, and that itself is quite a good thing.

So, basically, while a PLD can get hate on themselves quickly, and are better in emergencies, once a NIN tank gets out their second voke, hate is pretty much sealed on them, plus the fact that they aren't taking damage makes them slightly better imo.

Evad D'Aragon
08-03-2004, 04:18 PM
Ah, you have good points. But yesterday there was a Ninja in our party that was back-up tank, and he tanked for 3 fights to allow me to regain MP...well, guess what, at the third I only needed 25% of my MP to get back hate and to totally glue the monster on me, even after his second voke...so the sealing hate part is not very true. Provoke + Flash = more hate than any Ninja can muster.

To me, when a Ninja tanks, that means the mages must hold back a bit for it to work. When a Ninja tanks, the hate does not go up as fast, it's just that it basically doesn't go down...until the next Provoke. Because, thing is, the Hate generated by Provoke gradually goes down, unlike the Hate generated by damage ( Not sure where exactly I saw that, but heard many times this to be true ). What helps not reduce the hate generated by the Provoke is the greater damage the Ninja does, and that's not due to STR at all (Paladins/Warriors actually have, contrary to popular belief, very good STR, almost always equal or just a bit less than VIT, without taking into account the boost from equipment of course), but rather to his DEX.

In short, Paladins can get hate much higher, but get hit and so it goes down, while Ninjas don't really get it high, but thanks to not getting hit and better damage output, it doesn't go down as much.

And finally, tanking as Ninja is a lot more expensive than tanking as Paladin... Plus, they can't heal if an emergency arises, and they don't have Cover and Invincible ( The number one aggro-gatherer, even surpassing suici-diction...I mean, Benediction lol ), which can literally save lives.


So, for all these reasons, I believe Paladins are better tanks than Ninjas...but yeah, I know, I'm totally biased here, being a Paladin myself...lol

Wattson
08-03-2004, 06:14 PM
The thing is, nobody is going to be using Provoke + Flash in a normal situation when a NIN is tanking. :P
I've read about WARs in full AF stealing hate from a PLD with just a voke (all the +enmity stuff), but that doesn't make them "better" tanks than PLD.

The thing is, nobody really has to "hold back" with a NIN tank... your healer doesn't have to worry about holding back, because 90% of the time it's a RDM and he has other things to worry about. The only other mage would be BLM. And at higher levels, they cast what, like, two nukes and a MB a battle? that's not that much o.o;

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Evad D'Aragon
08-03-2004, 10:25 PM
Well, to me, the best tank is one that keeps hate on himself, no matter what others in the party do. He believed he would keep hate and I told him I could get it back easily. Too bad I didn't bet gil this time lol In your example, the Paladin that couldn't keep hate from the Warrior in AF ( Come on, Paladins also have Enmity+ in their AF ) was simply not good enough a tank...Unless the Paladin wasn't wearing his AF, but why wouldn't he if the Warrior in the same party was ?

You must have had some real crappy Paladins in your parties to say you usually had better experiences with Ninjas...or really good Ninjas. Now that I regurlarly have a refresher in my parties ( I just hit 47, so it's almost always a Red Mage or Bard in the party ), I almost don't even rest and have plenty of MP to keep hate ( Although I barely have 200 MP, but it seems it is enough lol ), without having downtime. In fact, the only "downtime" would be while the puller is looking for prey lol

So, while it may seem easier for you Mages to have Ninja tanks, they can't save your lives when it truly counts due to any problem that may arise ( unexpected aggro or link or monster that the party didn't gauge properly ), with Cover, Invincible or even Cure Magic. Although I'm far from dishing Majin Gakure, their 2 hours, but as far as I know, it serves no tanking purposes.For that reason alone I believe Paladins are better tanks. As for hate management, I already explained how the two works, and quite honestly it's a matter of taste and player skill because otherwise the end result is about the same, the tank keeps the most hate.

Wattson
08-03-2004, 11:49 PM
I don't worry about un expected things, as a RDM, it's my job to Sleep them :P

and I don't think killing yourself (NIN 2 hour) is a very good move for tanking. at all.

yes, I have had better experiences with NIN than PLD. The last PLD I partied with was afk more than not =\

Frums
08-24-2004, 02:03 PM
On my server I did a /sea all nin and all the high level ninjas had thief for a sub job.

I have a level 18 whm and my goal right now is to get my blm up to level 10 sub it to my whm and get to level 20 to get my chocobo license. After that I want to unlock all the other jobs especially ninja and more than likely I will use the thief as a sub.

Out of all of the jobs that you guys have to unlock which one do you think is the best?

Wattson
08-24-2004, 03:44 PM
NINs use THF sub at high level because they attack so fast and do such uber damage with throws that they don't need WAR sub, and aren't usually main tank (especially after level 74).

Good luck getting a party from levels 12-~70 without WAR sub.

There's no "best" advanced job, but there is a worst. and that would be DRG until they fix them.

Frums
08-25-2004, 07:17 AM
I'm tarutaru so I think I would be better off whm/blm later levels but I really want to try the ninja for a while. I don't know if I want a WAR sub job to go with a mage, just doesn't seem like it would be that useful. I'm sure I will try all the combinations at one point or another.

Tarutaru are mp machines :o)

Evad D'Aragon
08-25-2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by PlasmaTorture


There's no "best" advanced job, but there is a worst. and that would be DRG until they fix them.

Technically speaking perhaps, but then when you had player skill into it...So I don't really complain when I have a Dragoon in my team.


True enough, there are no "best" jobs, it only depends on what you like to do and how you do it, and frankly speaking, anyone who likes the job they pick will defend it through thick and thin, like in my case, the Paladin lol

@Frums :

Subbing Warrior to a Mage is always bad, unless you want to solo to up to level 10, then it helps a bit, especially if the job is White Mage since soloing as one can almost always be dangerous. The other way around (most especially White Mage), can be useful in soloing or when you do special missions and you need the most healing possible. Otherwise, don't do it in an EXP party.

Frums
08-25-2004, 08:43 AM
Ok, let me rephrase the question.

Out of all the advance jobs which one do you guys like best?

Evad D'Aragon
08-25-2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Frums
Ok, let me rephrase the question.

Out of all the advance jobs which one do you guys like best?

*points to my previous post*

In short, yeah, that would be Paladin ;) But just about anyone on the FFXI forum already knew that :p I also like Dragoon because of the wyvern, but as Plasma said, it needs to be fixed... or at least partially. Because of that, Samurai would have been my second choice after Paladin.

But as I already said, it truly depends on your own personality and what you like to be.

Paladins are heroes, they protect others, heal the injured, and save newbies. It goes without saying that you shouldn't be one if you're going to act like a jerk to people. You are expected to be of help.

However, on the other hand, you'll sometimes realise that others aren't nearly as ready as to help you as you are to help them, so sometimes it's a bit frustrating. Sometimes they even won't show the sligthest bit of gratitude for saving them.

But in the whole, any "good" Paladin that acts like they should be, saving lives and keeping aggro in battles, will be at the very least respected all the time. And so that's why Paladin is one of the most popular and well-liked jobs.

In short, tell me what kind of person you are as well as what you like to do and I'll tell you which job you should be ;)

Wattson
08-25-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Frums
I'm tarutaru so I think I would be better off whm/blm later levels but I really want to try the ninja for a while. I don't know if I want a WAR sub job to go with a mage, just doesn't seem like it would be that useful. I'm sure I will try all the combinations at one point or another.

Tarutaru are mp machines :o)

For the record, I'm a Taru also. :x
Also, I meant good luck getting a party as NIN without WAR sub, not a party in general.


My favourite adv job?
RNG all the way.
sooo expensive, but it's very entertaining to play when I just want to kill.

Strife-x
08-26-2004, 03:08 PM
my favorite job would be ninja, i like ninja because its a badass job for obvious reasons (utsusemi, tonko, etc) i also like it because not everyone can be a ninja, its pretty expensive in the later levels, i know people who quit being ninja because they are too poor, and ninja's own

paladin is my second favorite, because well.....PALADINS OWN! i would be a paladin if ninja wasnt so cool, paladin was my second choice if ninja didnt work out,
so yeah and there